Karen McFarlane 0:36

okay for the audience . We know we catch up a little bit beforehand and we were just talking about something very funny and yes negotiation if you will . Yes , exactly , but today we're , we're gonna I touch on some really interesting , serious kind of topic . Right , you want to introduce it , you want to introduce it .

Brittany S. Hale 1:05

Yeah . So

Discovering Different Digital Realities

Brittany S. Hale 1:07

to those listening , I'll just preface this by saying I was just scrolling through my feed and I realized we're having a conversation with someone else and we're just talking about what we're seeing on the same platform and I realized our viewpoints are completely different , despite having similar interests , despite having similar backgrounds . Having similar backgrounds , what our algorithms are feeding us are completely different and what we are thinking about wrestling with is so challenging . I might get news cute animals , you know cooking , some more news , some pop culture stuff you know .

Brittany S. Hale 2:00

But even in the news , the way that the news is shared , what we consider to be factual , you know , the perspectives of the way that we're viewing the world and engaging with the world , so completely different .

Karen McFarlane 2:23

I mean fair . I mean it's really powered by what we press like on , how much time we spend on something , and it's sometimes , you know , something dramatic might catch my eye and I end up watching it , but that doesn't necessarily mean I want to keep seeing it . But then it's fed to me and I always wonder , like what is that doing to me ? A to reinforce , reinforcing the things that I like , which , okay , I love cute dogs and babies , right , um , but then also , when you get a little bit more serious than dogs and babies , like it's probably reinforcing some of the narratives that I believe , but not necessarily introducing me to opposing point of views for me to think more critically about exactly and you have to actively search that stuff out .

Karen McFarlane 3:15

And social media at least how I use it Right . I like things given to me , right , yeah , so yeah , I mean it's .

Brittany S. Hale 3:26

It's the probably the most energy efficient dopamine hit we can have , and so I think there's something to be said . So , for example , I back when I was an undergrad . We hosted a panel and I forget the topic , but I remember there was an econ professor that we'd invited on the panel and the way that he saw the world was so different than me and I remember just boring holes into the side of his head and I was just so angry with him and looking back on it , I realized that that's one .

Brittany S. Hale 4:14

Why colleges and universities are such a crucial space is because you are introduced to ideas that may brush up against how you see the world . Right to engage with my own thought , question my own self , my own worldview and ultimately I realized that I understood his point . I didn't agree , but I could understand and I was able to move out of that space of emotion and ego . Right , I'm just mad at him , right , and I'm just boring holes into the side of his face . How could this man say this ? How could this man understand this ? And I was able to move into a space to say , okay , well , if I disagree , why and what facts do I have access to that supports my own ?

Brittany S. Hale 5:12

argument so maybe I'm just now realizing , maybe this is also some of what led me into law school . But because social media is so much more salient now , I think we get less of that . Because you can block , you can quite literally say not interested . And I'm not saying that we need to understand or agree with every view . There are some views that are just so abhorrent no , thank you . Right . But we don't get that as often because of how we receive information .

Karen McFarlane 5:56

You know absolutely and I think if you go back so , like in high school , for example , of how we receive information , absolutely . And I think if you go back so , like in high school , for example , you are told pretty much what to think , or at least back when I went to high school . I think now some high schools promote more critical and creative thinking , or at least some of the private schools do . So . You're told what to think and then in college you are invited to think . And

College: The Space for Critical Thinking

Karen McFarlane 6:27

I used to say this and I still believe this I don't think that college is a place where you go to figure out what you want to do in life at least not undergrad .

Karen McFarlane 6:31

It is to think critically , to learn how to think and learn how to learn right . And so you are given that safe space to explore the ideas , to disagree , to come up with your own theories , and that is a really important aspect of how you approach your career and life . And today it's even more important because the world is changing so dramatically in terms of technology and advancements that , beyond certain professions , it's really hard to skill specifically for one thing , and maybe also to your detriment , to skill specifically for one thing . But I think the other thing that has changed over the past , you know , eight to 10 years or something is that people used to be closer together I'm generalizing in their thinking . Sure , I'm generalizing in their thinking . So your viewpoint might be here and your viewpoint might be over here , but you kind of met in the middle with some of those things and it was clear to see how you could do that .

Karen McFarlane 7:45

It didn't feel as contentious as it does right now and I feel like people are so far apart that it is hard to bring them back to the middle . And social media doesn't necessarily help with that because it's feeding that one point of view , whereas , you know , I grew up in a very analog time and you know television before even cable , set amount of channels . The news came on at a certain time on a certain channel and you watch that and you all , everyone got the same information at the same time , right In , pretty much in the same way . How they receive it might be a little bit different , but in the same way , and that's how the world was . And then cable came on and then you had 24 hour news shows , which I think also is similar to social media .

Brittany S. Hale 8:48

Terrible for your nervous system . No one needs news at 2am .

Karen McFarlane 8:52

Exactly , and , of course , the newspapers were very popular . Right Again , another vehicle that people got information the same way , and it was a trusted source . And now social media opens up the doors to I can't think of the word , but like a multitude of quote , unquote experts , and it seems believable because people are very focused on getting their information in this one way instead of what we may traditionally call credible sources . And now the question of credibility has come up who's credible and who's not ?

Brittany S. Hale 9:30

Yeah , and the ability to have nuance and discourse around the nuance .

Karen McFarlane 9:37

Yes .

Brittany S. Hale 9:37

Because you now there's a check . Our executive producer feels she feels very strongly about this , so excuse her .

Karen McFarlane 9:50

It's okay . You don't usually listen to her voice , I know , so this is a welcome addition .

Brittany S. Hale 9:55

Yes , she feels is a welcome addition . Yes , she feels very strongly about it . But you'd be able to have moments where you could connect and say okay , I don't agree with you on these two points , but we agree on six other points .

Brittany S. Hale 10:16

And therefore , there's enough value in this relationship for us to continue . On social media , you can be canceled or unfollowed because of misstating something , mistakenly misgendering someone , which again , for depending on where you are and how you stay , whatever it is right and there's no room for , or there's less room , I think for grace , because now you can say I don't have to compromise with this person who disagrees with me . Now I need you to agree with me on all 10 points .

Karen McFarlane 11:05

Yeah .

Brittany S. Hale 11:06

And if you don't agree with me on all 10 points , you are the villain , you are the other , you are the other , you are my adversary in a way that is difficult to maintain , because then you're only speaking , you're speaking in an echo chamber and that you know much used phrase . You were quite literally preaching to the choir

Social Media's Echo Chamber Effect

Brittany S. Hale 11:31

, and then where do we go from there ?

Karen McFarlane 11:58

had , like you said you had , you had to compromise , and now you don't , because there's all these other people that think like you . So you must be right . You can remain steadfast in your position and you can be . You can just totally be unmovable , and that's not healthy , because that's not the real world , because , regardless of all these people out there in the ether that agree with you , they may not necessarily live next door or go to your school or be the people that you're going to work with . That's your reality and there's a mix of point of views and experiences that you're closing yourself off from because you are focused on your social echo chamber , social media , echo chamber , right , and it doesn't invite critical thinking . You know I'll say you know I need to give an example , which is going to be a silly example . There's , you know listeners know we love the Real Housewives , right ? Yes , so you know you , you introduced me to Reddit , which I'm going to never forgive you for . You're welcome .

Karen McFarlane 13:02

Because the problem is with Reddit is that you know the issues that I have , let's say , on Instagram . I haven't been on TikTok in a while because it really just sucks my brain dry and I need to give it a little space . Dry and I need to give it a little space . But the problem with Instagram is that I don't feel like commenting on the things that I want to say , to counter something or whatever . It's just not the space . But Reddit will give you the safe space to do it the long form response , long form everything . I'm just like . Do that , right ? Great , it's very cathartic in that way , but , right , you are also forced to confront opposing points of views on what you're talking about . So the things that I mostly comment on on Reddit are about real housewives , and so that's pretty much exclusively what it is , and so I have a point of view about the housewives , or a housewife that I believe , and then something pops up about so-and-so , whatever , and it's the opposite of my point of view .

Karen McFarlane 14:04

I click on it and I instantly get angry , right , I'm mad that they think differently than me , right , and I'm like that's so dumb . First of all , it's real Housewives . Why are you getting mad ? But secondly , let me read this thing and see why they think differently about it . I can agree or not agree . Right , again , this is low stakes because it's Real Housewives , but it's also an indicator how I need to operate for more serious topics . Yes , right , so I need to be open , which I am , I guess I'm just very like specific about Housewives sometimes . But you know , because it is low stakes , I don't have to be open . But in life you need to be open to like why does that other person think that way ? Where do they get that from ? Right , you have to say , although I don't agree . But why ? Where is that coming from ?

Brittany S. Hale 15:12

Yeah , and this is the part that makes advocacy , which many of us are introduced to in these higher education spaces or even in your community , right , there are always going to be advocacy groups . And advocacy groups don't only engage with one another , right ? They don't only engage with the people who agree with them , right . They don't only engage with the people who agree with them . The real change happens when they engage and inform , and , at times , persuade , people who either disagree or are ill-informed . That's how you build consensus . Yeah , there's a . Did you know , right ? What's important to you ? Let's prioritize what's important to you and let's figure out how to work together .

Brittany S. Hale 16:10

And I think that's it's very difficult . And so , even with a Reddit right , you can . Even with a Reddit right , you can . You know , I , I , I live in the space of conflict . I don't I'm not sure why I chose it , but I did . But I'm fascinated because of the lack of self-awareness that people have , and most people don't know how to argue , most people don't know how to disagree , most people don't understand how to engage in conflict in any way that is productive , we push it away and we'll say , oh , I don't agree with them , they're blocked .

Brittany S. Hale 17:00

Agree with them , they're blocked . So we don't get to question is there a logical fallacy that they're operating with ? Is this a straw man argument ? Are they truly arguing in good faith or are they and now we have to deal with right ? Are

Conflict and Productive Disagreement

Brittany S. Hale 17:09

they trolling ? Is this false information ? And the other issue with social media that I see happening from a generational perspective is that we have older generations that are more susceptible to manipulation through social media because they don't have any sort of updated digital media literacy .

Karen McFarlane 17:32

Right .

Brittany S. Hale 17:34

So you can put out a photo that's AI , you know where the person has maybe eight fingers and they'll say , oh my gosh , this is real , this is happening . You're like , ok , well , this person does it Notice that they don't have a thing . They don't have five fingers like they normally do in these Getty images . Other things are happening . This is actually not a real photo , or the person that you're arguing with is a bot , right , and it was quite literally designed to stoke dissension and anger and all of these feelings . And I'm sure there are spaces , but I don't come across them often . So that's my own research that I think I should do . But my question is how can we increase this ? How can we increase this media literacy for really every generation ?

Karen McFarlane 18:35

I mean , it's a really great question because I mean , just even adding to the AI , with eight fingers people can just Photoshop existing things . Things look real and you have to always question is this real ? I find myself doing that all the time . Is this real , can I really believe this story ? And we have to stop relying on clips of information .

Karen McFarlane 18:59

We do need full context . Right , we absolutely need full context , and that's what's missing from , you know , the majority of these dialogues is where did this come from ? Really from , really right , and why did this person say this thing ? And the why is big . Right , it's not our interpretation of the why , it is really the full context of the why . And also citing sources , because one of the things that social posts don't do well is , say , answering those questions . They'll put up a you know controversial quote , um , and you know for for clicks and comments . They'll even , they may even say who said it . But can you find the source to go ? Validate your ? Validate yourself or the people who are more intellectually curious about the context ? Validate yourself or the people who are more intellectually curious about the context ? No , so the barrier is high on purpose , right , and that's what's very , very irritating . And then it stokes that conflict .

Karen McFarlane 20:12

One thing that you've talked about conflict but I think the other thing that I think people don't realize is that you know they engage in conflict every single day . It doesn't have to be right , negative or tense conflict . Like you engage in conflict with yourself , like what am I going to do this morning ? Like you know or do you feel guilty about what you did or did not do , and you negotiate those conversations with yourself and even with a family member what are we going to eat for dinner ? Those things are . You're having a conversation about what I should and what I should not do and how to meet in the middle , and so you are practicing it . You just don't know how to externalize it and call it what it is , because conflict is always viewed as I'm fighting with you about something right , like you've talked about . It's a difference between what two people want , but it can also be the difference between what you think you want and what you should want for yourself as well . Exactly , and if you kind of reframe it , then you realize , oh , I have some of these skills right , I just need to externalize them and deal with them a little bit differently . I think the part about conflict that is truly challenging is the conversation around it . Right , so there's a conflict and there's a difficult conversations , and that's people get uncomfortable , right , so there's a conflict and there's a difficult conversations , and that's where people get uncomfortable , right , um , and they need to get more comfortable with that , and also people need to get really comfortable with that feedback . So it's a give and take .

Karen McFarlane 21:48

Like I had a conversation the other day someone reached out to me and I didn't know them she didn't know me , but we're in the same organization and she wanted to ask me a question about something I had done , but she didn't know how to do it because it was a conflict , okay , right , and she didn't know how to do it , but I could tell that she wanted to ask me something . Right , and she didn't know how to do it , but I could tell that she wanted to ask me something and she was uncomfortable . So I'm a person who I want you to ask me . Let's deal with it . And so I tried to create the space for her to do it . I tried to . She doesn't know me , so give her a little bit of my personality in an open and friendly way , and then , you know , say , hey , you , you know .

Karen McFarlane 22:40

So what is it you want to talk about ? And she said you know , I really didn't know how to bring up this conversation . So she asked me the question , talked a little bit about she's like I was really nervous about the conversation , but you just made it easy . I'm like yeah , you know . I was like yeah , I did it . Okay , here's I did it . Okay , here's why I did it , here's the context for why I did it . Right . And you know what else I did . I said , and I'm sorry if it created conflict for you , all right , but let's try to solve this together . Right , I'll do this part , because this is what I did and I can , I can correct that . And then you do this part . You know , and it could have been completely contentious , right , you could have come in defensive .

Brittany S. Hale 23:25

You could have just stonewalled and made it difficult and shut down the opportunity to connect Right , but you didn't , because you need to meet in the middle , right , right , I know I do .

Karen McFarlane 23:38

I said this other person , I had this phone call with someone I want to resolve the conflict and they were like no , it's not going to work because they're not going to meet you , they're not going to receive , and that was really interesting too . You have to like know your , your opposing party . But all that to say , right , that the tricky part about developing the media literacy is that the feedback mechanism is really not there . Yes , you're really by yourself in looking at the content and trying to understand , understand , but you have to develop your critical thinking skills and your curiosity , which I know is your favorite word right my favorite values .

Karen McFarlane 24:41

Hold up . Is this all there is to this ? Should I do more , and should I do more research or due diligence before I repeat it or share it ? And I'm talking about sharing it , like I know you're going to share stuff with your friends and family that you don't invent and talk crap about it , right ?

Brittany S. Hale 24:53

Yeah , but strangers who follow you Exactly , you have to be more thoughtful , totally . You know , this past week I was with a client on site and we played a game I'm big in using play to

Negotiation Experiment Reveals Human Behavior

Brittany S. Hale 25:09

teach lessons but I split them in half . I took half the people out of the room . I split them in half . I took half of the people out of the room and so the first half . You know , there are people they were very proudly number ones and they said you are going to make a request and you are not going to stop advocating for that request until you get it . I can do that . I'm in the leadership role , I can do it . We're going the leadership role , I can do it . I said fantastic . Second group . I said they're going to make a request of you . No matter what they request , you tell them yes , but there's no way that's possible .

Brittany S. Hale 25:53

And you can use some iteration of it , but I always want you to use yes , but but , when they hit their peak and you will know what that looks like Then I want you to switch to saying yes and and add something on to their request .

Brittany S. Hale 26:08

Mm , hmm the number of people who got out of their seat , walked away , slammed their pen down . These are these are again completely hypothetical requests . It was up to them . It could be . I need your pen , or , karen , can you give me a call ? Yes , but not today , that's not going to work . Yes , but I don't really know when we're gonna speak . Yes , but my phone is broke .

Brittany S. Hale 26:36

Whatever , it is right and the goal is to teach what resistance feels like and looks like and what acceptance looks like , because once they hit that emotional peak where they just they're completely frustrated , once the person turns to yes , and some of them don't even want what they were requesting anymore , even though the person's saying , yes , I can give you a call and you know what , I'll come and see you and we'll have lunch . I don't want to go anymore . They completely forgot the assignment and I just want us to be mindful of what resistance looks like , what we're resisting against and acceptance and what we can accept , what it looks like to accept something , because very often we can't keep what our request is because we're so focused on the resistance , we're so focused on our emotional uh , you know , lack of emotional management , lack of emotional professionalism in the moment , but some people were so grateful for the yes and because of all of the resistance that they'd encountered up until that point .

Karen McFarlane 28:06

So interesting and I wonder if you know that and I could . I wonder if that's like also based on personality and , obviously , experience , right ? So if you are so used to getting a no and you're used to it and you expect it then you might be more grateful for the eventual yes and Right Versus if you're not used to getting it right , that throws you in a tizzy Yep , Right , and it doesn't even matter if someone's going to acquiesce later . I just wonder like I feel like there's so many layers there are so many layers .

Brittany S. Hale 28:42

I mean we could talk more about it , but there are a lot of senior people who were in the first group . They were number one . And they're so used to using their seniority and their experience and their leverage , and they know how . I had one woman . She said I always get what I want . I know how to negotiate a salary . I'm going to talk about salary because I know how to get a salary and the situational positioning left her in her version . You you know , she felt powerless yeah , that's , that's pretty funny .

Karen McFarlane 29:22

I took a um negotiation class and I kind of signed up for it last minute . So I was mortified to know that I actually had to negotiate with real people like every week . It's like who knew ? I mean , it totally makes sense , but I obviously wasn't paying attention . So , um , but what was interesting is I walked in thinking that I wasn't a good negotiator , right , so that was my , that was my starting point .

Karen McFarlane 29:52

And so , in thinking that , though , it made me very open to learning how to be a better negotiator and so it allowed me to soak up the knowledge , and then I had to actually practice it , which was oddly nerve wracking , because I'm like these aren't real negotiations , but what we did know as students was something similar to what you just talked about is like these aren't real negotiations , right , but what we did know as students was something similar to what you just talked about is like this is what you need to get out of it , right , you don't know what the other person needs to get out of it , and there's like point system and stuff like that . It enabled compromise , though to some degree , but then it also talked about not just the mechanics of negotiation but the sentiments behind it , like the personality and why people do what they do , and what I realized is that that's where my superpower lies . Right , it's not in the mechanics I get caught up in that but it's more like if people like you , generally speaking right , you're more willing to to help and reach a compromise , whatever the case may be , and so I would always take some time to develop the rapport first and then try to get to where I needed to go . You're a natural marketer . Let me leave this Right .

Karen McFarlane 31:15

Maybe that's it . I don't think that I'm the primo negotiator . So you had some people , though that just like that woman , right .

Brittany S. Hale 31:22

Yeah .

Karen McFarlane 31:22

Boom , boom , boom and listen , in some cases that works right , Because it depends on what the goals are . And , at the end of the day , what you actually just you said was you have to focus on what you need to achieve and take the emotions out of it . So even in my building a rapport , I'm actually building emotions into it , right ? And sometimes emotions need to be taken completely out of it , right ? So you focus on the core thing . So , yeah , it's an interesting

Problem of Media Literacy

Karen McFarlane 31:55

interpersonal dynamic it is .

Brittany S. Hale 32:02

It is I , um , the next time I see you we'll we'll have to figure out some sort of situation for it to make sense to play , because I'm endlessly fascinated by creating these environments to examine human behavior .

Karen McFarlane 32:23

But you can also see it , though , in social right . So when you're commenting and people are going back and forth , that is their attempt to negotiate a new way of thinking Correct or a new way for thinking Correct .

Brittany S. Hale 32:35

And most times or a new way for you to entertain them .

Karen McFarlane 32:40

To give the feedback . To give the feedback .

Brittany S. Hale 32:42

To say , depending on how they're looking at it , the value that you're providing .

Karen McFarlane 32:46

If you're informing them .

Brittany S. Hale 32:47

They now say okay , well , I would like for you to inform me this way , or I would like for you to speak about these things specifically Yep , it is a means of entertainment . I need for you to talk about x part of your life . I need for you to show us this right .

Karen McFarlane 33:03

And so we , we're increasingly voyeuristic yeah while also being increasingly disconnected , which is so interesting right yeah , tell me everything about your life while I hide behind this random exactly and say all sorts of things about your life without full , again , without full context context yes , yes , don't make it too long .

Brittany S. Hale 33:30

In 10 minutes or less , tell me everything that I need to know about yeah , and you know it .

Karen McFarlane 33:36

Interesting , particularly in the comments , right , when I'm not caught up , sometimes I'm just sitting there . I'm like , wait a second , how do you know that ? How do you random commenter know more about that situation than I do ? Right , and sometimes I will say something like you know , I'm like that's , you know , I don't know intriguing or maybe even salacious , right , and I'm like , oh , is that true ? Right , and then I go searching because I want more information in depth , right , and I can't find it . Because I want more information in depth , right , and I can't find it . Or I find something and it's pretty pedestrian , right , it's not really what they said . I'm like , ugh , right , so that's not really true .

Karen McFarlane 34:27

But this post has like a zillion comments on it and people are like just blowing that up and it's just perpetuating the narrative , and it actually makes me think of the whole Hollywood controversy with the movie this . This ends with us . It ends with us with Blake Lively and and for the listeners , you know . So what's alleged is that , you know , baldoni's group went on a smear campaign in social media to smear Blake Lively , and I don't know if that's true or not . However , I see how easily it could happen because you just place these things with the right people and nobody goes any deeper than what's right in front of them .

Karen McFarlane 35:14

Wow , I don't know how you counter that and I just I think that social media is for lack of a better term it's just making us dumber . I don't want to call people dumb , I really don't , but I'm just . I know for me , um , that when I go deeper , I learned so much more , and when I don't , I really know nothing Right , and unfortunately , a lot of people are getting their information just from that one source . I mean , in school we're taught to , we're taught to cite various different sources , that's true , and then we don't .

Brittany S. Hale 36:04

Oh , my goodness Well .

Karen McFarlane 36:07

We haven't solved the media literacy problem .

Brittany S. Hale 36:09

Not yet . We're close , I mean we told people what to do . We did , we did . I just need to provide some sources . Oh , there you go . They should just listen to us . But if you're interested . We are a great starting point , I must say .

Karen McFarlane 36:26

We are , but we also provide continued learning resources for every episode , so you can dive deeper into what we're saying and formulate your own opinion . Very true , yeah , so we practice what we preach right mina , we preach , she's much more satisfied she was not in the director's seat right that . That was the problem .

Brittany S. Hale 36:55

That was my mistake To listeners . My apologies . I did not have her in her director's chair and for that I apologize . There we go .

Karen McFarlane 37:05

Let me know for next time . Alright , brittany , until next time , bye , bye .