Karen McFarlane: 0:33

We're back, we're back, we're back on the E-Word. Hi, Brittany.

Brittany S. Hale: 0:37

Hi Karen, how are you?

Karen McFarlane: 0:40

Hanging in there. You know, every day is a little bit of drama in this new world we live in, but you know hanging in there we look for the wins.

Brittany S. Hale: 0:50

We look for the joy where we can find them right Exactly.

Karen McFarlane: 0:53

You know who doesn't have a care in the world, though, Mina, on your lap.

Brittany S. Hale: 0:59

That's true. It's true. I momentarily bribed her with a dental stick. Oh, okay, so she's okay, she's happily chewing, but we may be interrupted. Hopefully we won't be. I make no promises. I make no promises.

Karen McFarlane: 1:16

Well, in this new world order right, we had some news about Tarjay right.

Brittany S. Hale: 1:29

We did Tell me this is my favorite place to go. Is it your favorite place to go? I have such fond memories of just strolling the aisles aimlessly to Target with friends, family, my dog. Target is one of the most consistently excellent shopping experiences I have had, so this news you're about to share makes me feel a little anxious.

Karen McFarlane: 1:59

What's going on, oh my goodness. Well, so the headlines have said that Target's pulling back on their DEI efforts. Now you got to dig into that a little bit, you know, because we like to go beyond the headlines, right? Exactly.

Brittany S. Hale: 2:22

I think that's just going to be our theme this whole year, beyond the headlines.

Karen McFarlane: 2:27

Beyond the headlines, beyond the headlines, and so a couple of highlights. Um, they had this target belonging at the bullseye strategy, which, by the way, it feels like a weird name.

Brittany S. Hale: 2:39

But yeah, because I don't want to be on the receiving end of a bullseye.

Karen McFarlane: 2:48

I don't know if that hopefully they didn't get involved in that, but I don't know. But essentially, they there's a couple of different things that they have going on, um, that they posted on their website, right? So, um, they are going to conclude their three-year diversity, equity and inclusion goals. Okay, they're concluding their racial equity action and change initiatives. It was called reach and that was as planned. They had planned to, you know, conclude them in 2025. Okay, they're ensuring their employee resource resource groups are communities that are fully focused on development and mentorship and the communities will be open to all. Okay, they're further evaluating their corporate partnerships to ensure they're directly connected to their roadmap for growth. They're staffing all external diversity surveys, including the HRC's Corporate Equality Index, very similar to many other organizations.

Brittany S. Hale: 3:54

Yeah, unfortunate for HRC, but like I said, we heard it.

Karen McFarlane: 4:00

And finally, they're evolving their supplier diversity team to the supplier engagement team to better reflect our inclusive global procurement process across a broad range of suppliers, including their focus on small businesses. Okay, yeah.

Brittany S. Hale: 4:20

Well the good news is that a significant portion of minority-owned businesses are small businesses. Very good point, so that's a bonus very good point, so that's a bonus and, um, if I can put my strategy hat on for a moment, please do. Is there a world where target looked at the upcoming presidential election? They had their analysts do so, right, whoever's underneath the hood and said OK, well, if we we have this. I believe he said it was a three year roadmap.

Karen McFarlane: 5:06

Mm, hmm, yep.

Brittany S. Hale: 5:07

OK, so we have this three-year roadmap and if a presidential administration comes in that is supportive and receptive of these types of initiatives, then that's good pr for us because we can say we're we've achieved such success that we're we're continuing this right, we're renewing our three year commitment to another three years. Or if a presidential administration comes in that is not receptive and in fact is very anti-DEI, then we can fall in line and say, well, we're ending it. You know we were sunsetting it because we only agreed for three years anyway. Am I being too conspiratorial?

Karen McFarlane: 6:09

I mean, those are definite possibilities, right? I think there's another possibility which you know could have nothing to do with the political climate. Right, there, I think there's another possibility which you know could have nothing to do with the political climate, right, we have to give that a little bit of grace, right, of course. And, um, they're looking at their, their, their roadmap for growth, which actually they say right, um, to some degree, and they're evaluating whether those programs are effective in laddering up to their you know, their overall business goals, right, so there's a world where it could be divorced from the political climate. Okay, that's fair, but in the political climate you know, um, that we're in, it's hard to see that, to see that, and any change or evolution is going to be linked to, you know, this barrage of news that says that any change in DEI strategy is pulling back from a DEI strategy, and it could absolutely be that. I'm not saying that it's not right, it could also be something else. No-transcript.

Brittany S. Hale: 7:41

Right, and the only reason I bring that up is because a few years ago, target received a lot of pressure from conservative groups for their Pride Month merchandise.

Karen McFarlane: 7:55

Yeah.

Brittany S. Hale: 7:56

And there was seemingly some backlash about the merchandise. I recall seeing people recording themselves knocking down the merchandise or any of the mannequins that were showing it. So that to me, and given their rapid response of taking all of the stuff down, that to me suggests that there's at least one eye on the political climate and the groups that may be inspired to act as a result of whatever targets policies are.

Karen McFarlane: 8:44

Yeah, I agree. I mean, at the end of the day, they have to be responsive to the communities that they serve, right, and there are so many different forces at play other than the communities, economic forces and all of that and they have to look at what kind of risk that climate provides for them. So I think it's a very delicate balance for any major corporation to embark on in this very volatile climate. So if we look back at, say, I don't know when Target actually really really started, but everybody seemed to start in 2020, right, 2021.

Karen McFarlane: 9:29

Sure, if we look back at that, a lot of what we saw was in response to the communities and the outrage and the call for change. And now, some years later, we see a different kind of response and we see companies responding to that. So it's kind of no different than those times. It just feels like even the programs that they had in place prior to it falling under or labeled DEI are now under attack as well diversity programs that have been in place for decades in many organizations and is now being weaponized in a way. That's basically saying you know, supplier diversity and DEI, for example, are the same thing, and then we see these weird stories crop up around. You know not playing the Tuskegee Airmen video, right? So basically, this censoring of Black history, as if Black history is a DEI component rather than it being American history.

Karen McFarlane: 10:53

Yeah, that's what I was going to say.

Brittany S. Hale: 10:55

Yeah, exactly, I mean I come from my father has served, both of my grandfathers have served, and so I take great pride in my family's role in ensuring American freedom and it seems like such a missed opportunity to uplift the collective investment in protecting those freedoms, simply because of personal animus or any sort of insecurity. We can't take it back. It's done right. These people served, they, many of them, gave their lives for this country in hope of a better, more freer, more perfect union. So I I saw that it was put back. But again, again, the question is to what end we erase this history. To what end, you know, even today, and I'm curious to know what your response is.

Brittany S. Hale: 12:12

I was thinking a lot about kind of reskilling and workforce planning and what that's going to look like going forward, especially if these particular organizations, like a Target or McDonald's or anyone else, assuming that they have a CDO or a chief diversity officer. Are the CDOs around the country feeling nervous, you know? Is their job in jeopardy?

Karen McFarlane: 12:41

I think their job is in jeopardy for sure.

Brittany S. Hale: 12:43

Yeah, and knowing that over 70% of CDOs across the United States are white.

Karen McFarlane: 12:53

Right, right Does that change the perception I'm learning of it. Yeah.

Brittany S. Hale: 13:02

Right? The argument, as I understand it, is having a CDO or having these diversity initiatives are fueling a lack of fairness and opportunity. So then my question becomes what happens when the people who are drafting these initiatives and encouraging these initiatives are white? Because the underlying assumption is that this is unfair to white people, right?

Karen McFarlane: 13:37

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that history has shown us that the powerful few will sacrifice their own in order to further their own agenda.

Karen McFarlane: 13:52

So the fact that their own agenda, so the fact that white people may also be affected by some of these changes in their view, is a necessary byproduct or just collateral damage for a greater good in their view, and that's always how it's been. And so, unfortunately for the general population, this is a wake-up call to realize that when you remove things like DEI, it also affects veterans, people differently abled people, right Women, just women in general. It's not just the black and brown folks, which that was the marketing that that other group put out there, but the reality is. Here's the hard truth. There's never been a program created exclusively for the black and brown people. We always are a by-product of a greater good, to be honest.

Brittany S. Hale: 15:03

Can you say that again?

Karen McFarlane: 15:05

I think that's never been a program specifically created to benefit black and brown people, particularly black people. It's just been made to seem that way. The biggest okey-doke has been welfare right. It has been marketed and there's this whole history stuff about this but marketed to make it seem as if Black people were the only people benefiting from it, when in fact, we are far from it. They are not creating a welfare program to take care of Black people.

Karen McFarlane: 15:37

That's not happening, and so I think that's the biggest wake-up call is that other people are affected that didn't think they would be part of the sweep, essentially, unfortunately, and so people will be affected even in these like individual pockets of different companies. How they will be affected, we don't. We don't necessarily know. There's a big assumption that these practices were illegal and unethical and that were not merit based, when in fact, it was just compelling people to be aware of their biases, that were holding certain groups back and intentionally make systemic shifts that created more fairness. It was about fairness and equity, but it has been twisted into something else, and so this is what we see happening day in and day out, and Target is the latest company right that is shifting their viewpoints on this. Do I think they're taking it all away? No, do I think they have to appease the administration? Yes, do I think there's smart people working there that's going to figure it out? Yes, and do.

Brittany S. Hale: 17:25

I think you're absolutely right. This is, quite honestly, almost a boon, quite honestly almost a boon. You know me, I'm a political optimist. I'm going to find the opportunity in adversity. So for those who are listening or watching, it's just like okay, here she comes again. We need optimism. We need optimism and this is an opportunity for you. If you are cpg, if you provide consumer products and goods, your website needs to be functional. You need to be up and running.

Brittany S. Hale: 18:10

You know, if I were, If I were someone like the lip bar for example that is placed in Target and if I understand that a huge part of my Target demographic is planning to boycott Target, head to thelipbarcom. Intercode boycott for free shipping. Intercode boycott for 15% off. I think there's work to do for entrepreneurs who seek exposure to greater markets. If you now know that you can't easily rely on a big box retailer, you have to get really, really crafty and really strategic about how you uplift your goods and how you get in front of the people that are going to spend the money that are going to spend the money.

Karen McFarlane: 19:16

Unfortunately, for these small businesses, it's more work, right, and that is the trade-off, that's the huge trade-off. Their profits are going to suffer, but you need to survive. And one thing that small businesses but I'm just going to talk about Black people right now we know about survival. We are resilient human beings and we're creative human beings and we need to figure it out, but we also need to support our own, and that's something that I don't think we're as good at, you know. I mean, can we talk about the boycotting for a second? Yes, can we talk about the boycotting for a second yes, and just talk about the pros and cons of both sides of that? I mean, we've heard from some Black-owned retailers that they don't want us to boycott Target because their sales will suck. Because their sales will suck and of course, you know, our economic power is one of the very most powerful tools that we have. So the question is do we boycott Target or do we boycott certain brands that are not Black-owned owned? Let's talk about the black community specifically for a second right, sure? Do we just go to target and buy their products? Is that enough?

Karen McFarlane: 20:44

And I have a bigger question or thought process around boycotting. You know I think we talked about this a little bit last week Like we're not very organized right now around a movement in particular, these boycotts. Maybe we'll do them and they'll last for some period of time, but then most people are eventually going to go back to shopping in the way that's most convenient randomized movement that thought about the implications of people not taking the bus, even down to providing people with rides. I mean, it was very well thought out so that it could last for a significant period of time and have the impact, the economic impact that it needed to have to spark change, whereas now we're like oh, we don't like this, let's boycott this. Okay, when we start, what do we?

Brittany S. Hale: 22:08

do. This is a really important point that you bring up, because we have more access to one another than they did 60 years ago, right, where they were just working with landline phones and mailers. We can galvanize things really, really quickly. But then the question that came up for me as you were speaking was if Target comes to the table and says, okay, our sales took a hit, what do you want? Who's designated to respond? Who represents the group's best interest? Now I nominate us. I think that we are great listeners, we're not only apping here and that we were very intentional about educating ourselves around the needs of the community. But who decides that?

Karen McFarlane: 23:22

Very good question. That's our biggest the killer's heel.

Brittany S. Hale: 23:27

Right and, and so that is. That is the challenge, whereas again, you have a particular group challenge. Whereas again, you have a particular group. You have a project 2025, you have a thousand page tome detailing here's what we're going to do from the legislative side, here's what we're going to do from the judicial side, here's how we're going to engage in media, and so you have your actors in each individual space.

Brittany S. Hale: 23:57

My question is where's the project 2026 or the project 2027? And how do you engage people in that? So we are, for example, by the time this comes out, the Chinese new year will have come and gone, or the Lunar New Year, but tomorrow's the Lunar New Year. I'm very excited. It's always a really nice base of time. Target, for example, I saw tons of decorations around the incoming year of the snake and the partnership with I forget her name, please excuse me, but she's a Vietnamese creator and Target's working with her to design the red envelopes that family members will exchange and give to children, you know, in celebration and welcoming wealth and prosperity for the new year. So if this now goes away and again it's for a limited period of time, of course, for the Lunar.

Karen McFarlane: 25:07

New.

Brittany S. Hale: 25:07

Year. But if initiatives like this go away so that when Diwali comes up, you know I can't go to Target and buy a card or buy any sort of decoration for Diwali, well, who do you go to right? Is it one group that's only representing Black creators? Is it one group that is focused on really all sort of global majority creators, right and people who are expanding our awareness of what it means to be American? And who's going to do that? Who? Who does that? Who's responsible?

Karen McFarlane: 25:50

This is why I think it's not going to go away, right, for particularly a company like Target. I think that if they, they need to focus on their customers and what their customers want and people don't want vanilla products, right, all the time and so those moments like that moment, like what you just shared, that you can A as a person that doesn't come from that culture, experience it and you know, experience it in the way that you want to experience it. But also for people who do come from that culture, to have a place to go and get all these things and, you know, engage. That's still important from a customer perspective and it's still a global retailer and I just don't feel like these global corporations can just strip away the foundation of DEI from their organizations. They can strip away the words, right, but what they have to do to, um, increase sales and connect with their customers and build loyalty and all that, those things they recognize that those things have value.

Karen McFarlane: 27:01

Over the past years, I don't think any of us guys were like, yeah, we don't, we don't need to connect with any customer on that level. It's not going to make us any money. I'm sure some if we were like some celebrations don't right, because maybe they're not authentically connecting with them or their audience really isn't that, or whatever the case may be, it's not aligned. But I just find it very hard to believe. Now, there's a lot of things that have happened recently that I did not anticipate happening. But people then that they want to make money and this does not make them money. This does not make them money to step away from their customers, right. Right, you know so.

Karen McFarlane: 27:41

But to your point about us not having leaders, leaders, people to speak for us. That is a huge gap in the opposition. Essentially, that needs to be filled. We need to have a plan. Project 2025 was written down so people can galvanize around it. What do we look at Nothing. We have no idea what's going on at Nothing. We have no idea what's going on. By the way, just as a sidebar, I had an idea this many years ago. Of course, I didn't know how to execute. I just wanted it to be blackout day, okay, where basically all the black people just stopped. And then I wanted to be blackout week, but we stopped shopping, okay, we just stopped. And it would be like every week, every year, for one week, we remind people of our buying power.

Brittany S. Hale: 28:39

The collective buying power, which is over a trillion dollars, I believe.

Karen McFarlane: 28:42

Something like that. Yes, okay, so I still like that idea. The only thing is that I think people would increase their shopping the week before if they were participating.

Brittany S. Hale: 28:54

Right, because it counts. You're defeating the practice, but this is why I nominated us. You know, because of ideas like this, karen, when it comes to the marketing piece, there's no one that they need to be calling. We need to think about Blackout Week be calling, so think about blackout week.

Karen McFarlane: 29:19

We really need to think about blackout week. I'm just saying we stopped shopping or maybe we just do all black that week. So if you want to buy food cause I understand you're going to want to buy food, right, and things of that nature that week you and then we have to have people need to know where to go, cause that's that's the hard part.

Brittany S. Hale: 29:32

It's, and there are apps right, there are databases that will show you. Hey, if you would like a caterer in this in Atlanta, here you go.

Karen McFarlane: 29:44

You know, you.

Brittany S. Hale: 29:45

you want a designer in Tulsa Fantastic.

Karen McFarlane: 29:54

Yeah, exactly, there's a. I'm just going to shout her out because there's a new creator. She created Shop the Hood Yep, and it has all the black owned businesses. I think there's also Shop Black as well. You know, we need to just engage with these tools.

Karen McFarlane: 30:05

I actually just discovered today another app going back to the small business aspect of you saying, get your website and stuff right. It's called Folklore and essentially it's a platform that enables people to start their businesses and all the different operational aspects and even connects you to freelancers to help you, you know, build your business, and there's all different sorts of resources and tools if you want to get started and it's Black-owned, okay. So, which is very cool in my view, obviously, and yeah, we need to find more things like this and engage and help them grow, right, right. So, whether you boycott Target or not, that's up to you, obviously, um, and but if you do shop there, try to support the Black business owners or whatever nationality or cultural you want to support. We're not just saying black owned, but of course, we favor the black code and be intentional, you know, and those dollars are going to help set those uh people up for any changes that that happen going forward.

Karen McFarlane: 31:23

We don't know what's going to happen. We don't know if contracts are going to be canceled. We just have no idea what the implications are. So everyone just needs to get their money up and if you're going to spend, get your money up with Black-owned businesses as much as you can. I mean, sometimes the businesses aren't fully Black-owned and we totally get that. You need capital in order to grow and build. But you know, just be mindful and do your do the best that you can and in the meantime, let's find some, some really awesome leaders. We might just step up Brittany, but story of our lives right'll do it oh goodness, it may happen.

Brittany S. Hale: 32:20

Yes, and in the meantime, karen, yes, we're gonna talk about blackout week and I am wishing you health, fortune and a year of prosperity as we celebrate the Lunar New Year.

Karen McFarlane: 32:35

I receive that and I wish you the same. Thank you, all right, until the next piece of drama that happens next week.

Brittany S. Hale: 32:46

Yeah, see you next week. I'll see you then.