Karen McFarlane: 0:35

Hi Brittany. Hi Karen. Hi Mina. She says hi. It's good to see you. You too. Mina or me. Well, both of you.

Brittany S. Hale: 0:47

Both of you. But you know, the dog's super cute. Well, listen, I have a favor to ask you. Okay. I need some help with my homework. Talk about a day you never thought would come. And you're the perfect person to ask these questions to. So I'm taking this course called Neuroscience of Business at MIT. And really not what I expected. It's really basically what the course is trying to get us to understand is the connection to our full self, how we access our thoughts scientifically, but also practically. Right. And how that affects our leadership style. So it actually, you know, is super helpful as I go through the course. The first module, I was a little skeptical because it focused on things like rest, fuel eating, right? What they called hydration, water, oxygenation exercise, right? Things of that nature. And I was like, I took an MIT course to learn about rest. Yeah, to learn about rest. But you know, it actually dives deeper into how all of these things affect the brain. And so, quite practically, if you don't eat or you don't sleep, you don't function well. And that affects like everything you do for the rest of the day until you actually catch up on these things, right? So that's why it's important for you to take breaks to make sure you eat so that you know your brain, the the blood, the blood vessels are flowing, the thought processes are flowing, all those things are really connected. So one part of this course, which is the lesson that I'm in right now, is the six modes of thinking. Okay. And so it's really about diversity of thought within yourself and how you apply that to your own decision making, but also your leadership of others. Right.

unknown: 2:48

Okay.

Brittany S. Hale: 2:49

So here's what my homework is. I need to ask various people about these six modes of thinking and how they use them, which ones they lean on the most.

Karen McFarlane: 3:01

Okay.

Brittany S. Hale: 3:02

Which ones, after we talk about them, you think you should start using because you're under or underutilizing. And then finally, which ones you're not going to really use as much because they don't serve you. Okay. You ready? I'm ready. This is exciting. Well, the six modes of thinking are really kind of self-explanatory. So it is emotional, okay, logic, intuition, motivation, creativity, and the brain-body connection, very much as what I just led with with rest, fuel, all of that, right? So those are the six ways. I'll repeat them one more time: emotional, logic, intuition, motivation, creativity, and the brain-body connection.

Karen McFarlane: 3:55

Okay.

Brittany S. Hale: 3:56

Okay. So as you think about these, which ones do you think that you lead with? Emotional, intuition, and probably the brain-body connection. Okay.

Karen McFarlane: 4:10

I'm gonna ask you all three, then you talk about why. Okay. So which ones out of the ones I talked about that are not emotion, brain-body connection and intuition is a mode of thinking that you think you should either start using or you're underutilizing and should use more.

Brittany S. Hale: 4:31

Okay, I underutilize motivation because I recognize that my motivation ebbs and flows. And so I've implemented systems for me to execute regardless of what my motivation is. Okay. So give me an example of that. So an example of that would be when I work out. So I am the person who I literally roll out of bed and go to the gym. Because from my point of view, that is the hardest part of my day. The rest of my day can be taken up by meetings or sporadic social events. And so there are always other opportunities to get out of it. But when I wake up, it's nothing else to do. So I I don't rely on how I'm going to feel or if I'm going to be motivated. My system is you get up and work out. That is just what you do on this day. Does it matter what the weather is? That's just the system that works. And so that is the first thing that pops up on my phone is the workout that I'm going to do. So that's my way of trying to get around my motivation.

Karen McFarlane: 5:54

Well, it sounds like it's very much linked to your the brain-body connection, right? Which is really important to you. So it shows the throughput to that, you know. Okay, so underutilized is motivation. Where does creativity and amend logic fall for you? Underutilized or just something you'll just use less of?

Brittany S. Hale: 6:15

My logic, I would say my emotions are tempered by my logic. And creativity, I definitely could engage in that more. So uh, for example, I like to dance. I look at as cook at cooking as being creative and baking, especially, and that's something that I only do during certain times of the year. And I find that in high stress times, my creativity is usually the first thing that I'll set aside. So it's definitely something that I should use more.

Karen McFarlane: 6:58

Got it, got it. So now tell me a little bit more about emotion, intuition, and the brain-body connection as being your uh that you lead with.

Brittany S. Hale: 7:10

So I'm by nature emotionally reactive. So I will I will respond viscerally to a situation that I'm in, and I will feel it physically. So if my shoulders tense up or my neck starts to feel tense, that's information for me. If my back starts to feel tight, that's also information for me. So that's when I use logic to tap in to say, okay, I what am I feeling and what's happening to make me feel this way. And is that aligned with objectively what's happening in this space? comes in because it is very it's been very useful in how I conduct business and how I form relationships because I listen for what isn't said, or where people self-edit or will cut themselves off, and I lean in my intuition to to become more curious about the things that people feel like they shouldn't discuss or they have difficulty articulating, and that helps me build trust with a client or you know, whomever. And so I've come to rely on intuition. It's funny, I actually had a I had like a scary dream last night that helped me become more decisive about how I feel about a relationship in my life and where that relationship has value and whether it has value. And so that's you know, that intuitive side is I recognize that my subconscious is trying to work through something that's clearly been happening somewhere in my brain for a while. Um, and it's helped me like having a bad dream has helped me develop clarity in my waking life. Yeah. I, you know, I like how you put that because, you know, one of the things too that going through this course, you know, they really try to link, you know, the physiological aspects of the brain to your reactions. Now, while I can't sit here and quote all the scientists that were talking about this, what is interesting is that the two things you lead with, emotions and intuition, uh, actually concur, right? But you know, when I've talked to other people about this, emotions and intuition for the most part are looked at a little negatively. Like people feel like you could be overly emotional about something, and that is a bad reaction to have, or it shouldn't be leaned on as heavily in decision making or interacting with others. Right.

Karen McFarlane: 10:08

And one thing kind of struck me, which was you know, your intuition in particular is probably connected to something that you just don't remember. So you're actually having a physical reaction to something that may have happened in the past that you're not fully connected with as to why you're having this feeling, as to why you should or should not do something or connecting in a different way. I also think like intuition and emotions are an interesting overlap because you know, how you feel about a reaction, right, can be coupled with that gut feeling. And that gut feeling is actually tied to your gastrointestinal tract, right? Signals that are being sent. And so I feel like you, in order for your intuition to work really well, it has to be paired with emotion to some degree. So I totally get that coupling, but it's interesting that some people feel like that's a completely negative thing. And those that feel that way lean very heavily on logic.

Brittany S. Hale: 11:19

Yeah. And that I actually think being able to lead with emotion and intuition has been a strategic advantage in guiding, supporting, and leading people who over-rely on logic because they're still emoting. They are less cognizant of how they're expressing those emotions and they're less cognizant of how to identify that emotion. So it's still impacting their decision making. They're just blinded to it.

Karen McFarlane: 11:53

Yeah, and I think there's a distinction between how you leverage these modes of thinking within yourself versus how you leverage them with others. Within yourself, you're more critical in some ways of how you're going to assess and discern information, right? Like so you can allow yourself to feel all the feelings, move into a logical space, as you talked about, right? To kind of temper those feelings, uh lean on your intuition because it has proven solid for you and they're all integrated. And so you can have that dialogue with yourself in a very fast way, right? Within your brain. When you now use that externally, you know, there's more to consider. And one of the most important things, and you just alluded to this, is how are they thinking about it? Right. Right. What mode are they in? So if they're in logic mode and you are in emotional mode, right? Depending on how they are receiving that information. If they are strictly logical and you are leading with emotion, you may never connect. Right. There'll be two ships passing the night, they'll they totally won't get you. But if you can engage in a conversation that uses logic with logic, but you are emotionally tapping into how they feel about the situation and just using logic to connect with them and get them to understand and see a point of view, then you have effectively communicated, right? And shown leadership in a very unique way. Exactly. And I think, especially coming from litigation, right? You need to know your audience and you need to be able to pick up on the subtle nonverbal communication that you are receiving from the jury. There are certain people, to your point about logic, who are going to perk up when a medical expert is going to testify, as opposed to a character witness who may be leading with emotion, right? That may be resonant more resonant with some people, less resonant with others. And I found as a lawyer in in my current uh space, right, creating pathways and strategy for groups is I'm a translator. It's my job to understand the the language that they're speaking, to shine light on the dark corners and to translate the problem and the solution. Because to your point, you're it's not going to land for someone. For someone who leans into logic. They may overly rely on logic because they feel fear and they don't they don't trust anything that can't be objectively measured. Right. That's okay. And that leaves them vulnerable in many ways. So how can I communicate? How can I speak the language that this person is speaking and build impact, build trust, and help them navigate their way forward? Yeah. And, you know, I think to your point, there is vulnerability or limitation to any one mode of thinking. You know, I asked another person this question about the same questions, and she said creativity was not her strong point. And I was like, how so? Tell me more. And she was like, Well, if I'm asked to do A and B, and C and D is what we need, I'm laser focused on C and D. The A and B doesn't make sense to me. That's the logic part. And she says, I there's no way for me to do B and C, which would be the creative part to kind of meld both ways. Like my brain does not work that way. Right. Right. Now, she had she said she's not gonna change because her strong, her strong areas were logic and intuition, right? And so she said that worked really well for me. I don't need creativity right at all. You know, her example demonstrated that there's a weakness there, you know, because sometimes you have to break out of that box and be creative in your in your thinking or in the solutioning, right? To bring all parties along and make sure everybody's like on the same page and can contribute in different ways, you know. So in many ways, it shows that the diversity of thought can help you just be more strategic or smarter about the decisions that you're making. Now, interesting, you said motivation, you felt like you were underutilizing, but your example was for yourself. And it's like so similar, right? So I said that too when I was talking to my colleague, and she was like, No, she's like, you lead with motivation. Like, no, you're wrong. She's like, No, that's what you do with other people, and I was like,

Brittany S. Hale: 17:21

Oh, but you know, yes, that is very true because you know, we've talked about it before. I am persuaded that most people are galvanized at work by one of three motivations: affiliation, achievement, or power. And so when I'm leading teams, I want to know which of those motivations guides them. And then I translate the strategy or the goals or whatever it is I need from them into that.

Karen McFarlane: 17:53

So exactly. I need to know why you're here. Okay, why what's important to you and why are you here? And don't don't sell me the line, oh, I just want to be part of the company or part of the team. Yeah, that's this this amount. Okay. This is the part that's you, and that's okay. That's okay. I just need to create alignment for that, and just like you said, translate that the goals, what we're trying to do into what's gonna work for you, and also lean into that strength of yours, right? Like I am a believer of the strengths finders. Yes. And when I first read the book like a long time ago, when it was in book form and not part of Gallup, right? I had my top five strengths, and the beauty of it was it gave me permission to not have to be good at everything. I could just lean into these things that I knew I was good at, strengthen them, and then partner with people who complimented me. And I don't know, that was just like an eye-opening thing for me. I was like, oh my gosh, that's amazing. And that's basically how I've structured my life since then. I'm like, wait, you're doing this thing, you do it. So um I think that it's really important to like understand where you're comfortable. Right. And there's this other thing, gosh, it's called working genius, and it's an assessment. And um I saw it at a conference, I have to take the actual assessment myself. But the idea behind it is that there are six categories. Well, three categories, but six, two fall into each of the three categories. I can't remember the exact categories right now, but the premise behind it is at work, there are things that give you great joy. There are things that you're good at and you could do some skill building, and there are things that you just can't stand doing. So I remember this speaker saying, you know, hey, if someone called me up to volunteer for something, if they said to me, Oh, you got to pack boxes for, you know, the poor and the hungry, right? He literally said something like that. I'm not doing it. He said, That sounds really bad. I'm not doing it. I'm not motivated. That sounds horrible to me. I don't want to do it, I'm not a taskmaster. However, if you said, I have whatever the number is, a million dollars and I don't Know how to spend it. He's like, I'm gonna be there for you all day, every day until we figure that out. Okay. But you couldn't get me to spend two hours packing a box.

Brittany S. Hale: 20:39

Right.

Karen McFarlane: 20:40

And I thought that was fascinating because that's true, right? You need to figure out how people's brains function the best, where they need to sit in the cycle of things and tap into that. And doesn't matter if they can do it, it matters if they enjoy doing it. Two totally different things, right? And so that also taps back into how they think about their work, right? And how they're applying those modes of thinking to the work that they're doing. I resonated with that too, because I'm like, yeah, I don't want to pack a box, but I'll sit there and do a strategic plan for you. Right.

Brittany S. Hale: 21:24

Exactly.

Karen McFarlane: 21:25

No problem, right? Not a problem as well. So yeah. But yeah, I think there's like the internal and then there's the external when it comes to these modes of thinking. I am super creative when it comes to solving a problem. Yes. Right. But and also coming up with ideas, right? Like fresh new ideas. But I might not be as creative when it comes to executing on it.

Brittany S. Hale: 21:56

I think that's really interesting because I sometimes or very often I feel like I draw a blank when it comes to the new idea. I can refine it. And I can chart the path and say, this is how we're gonna do it. Great. You want, you know, you want to make the newest, coolest widget. Great idea. Except here's the stuff you need to change. Here's how we get there. And here's how we make sure it is the absolute best widget possible.

Karen McFarlane: 22:27

Yeah. Yeah.

Brittany S. Hale: 22:29

And so complimentary.

Karen McFarlane: 22:31

There you go. Yeah. I just don't like task. I like the the whole I'm just I'm just bundling it under administrative, right? But I don't like a list, a task list. I don't like to, it just feels very overwhelming to me. However, I can manage all these different pieces very differently. That doesn't help other people what they need to know what's going on. For me, you know, come with a fresh idea. I would be like, okay, that's how we need to refine the idea, da da da da. But I'd rather somebody else execute portions of it. Again, not that I can't do it. It's about what brings me joy. Exactly. You know? So yeah. Um and the brain-body connection. Tell me more about how you started to talk about that a little bit, but tell me more about how you think about that.

Brittany S. Hale: 23:19

Yeah. So I am I'm really kind of obsessive when it comes to sleep hygiene. Everybody knows. After like nine o'clock, I'm not gonna respond to text. You will get a response maybe five, six in the morning. But I am very clear that I need like eight to nine hours of sleep. Do not try to interfere with that. I don't care, you know, how amazing, you know, dating that's always been an issue because people are like, oh my gosh, I want to stay up and talk to you. And I'm like, yeah, no, like I have to go to sleep. And so I am very intense about that. I want it to be off screens by a certain time, and I have almost like a two-hour ritual that I do to wind down and really get quality sleep. I'm not a pleasant person if my sleep is disturbed. So that's that. I am obsessive about hydration, drinking water, things like that. My diet could be better, but again, that goes back to the creativity, right? Like I like when I create the time to make robust, healthful meals that feels loving for myself and in my body, in my gut, right? And there are some things that I eat because I believe that it improves my intuition. So fermented foods are really, really good for your gut. So fortunately for me, I love that, whether it's kinchi, olives, pickled beet, anything pickled. Very much my favorite snack is like um like giardiniera, like the you know, like the it's like Italian pickled peppers and carrots and you know, whatever. I can snack on that all day. And when I was little, it was really weird because they were like, why is she all about olive? Like I don't know about the sodium content, but I've just always really liked that. And so that feels like you know, kind of throwing my body a bone. Some of my favorites, so like popcorn, like air pops, you know, love that. And there are certain snacks, like dried cranberries and walnuts. I always have that in my bag no matter where I go. Really? It is my favorite snack. If it's not fermented, that's like my favorite sweet savory snack. Um, but again, because I am like a snacker. Kind of like a squirrel. Like I always have some little snacks hidden somewhere. And so with that mind-body connection, it's that, it's completing workouts, and that sense of pride I feel when I can increase the weight. So I'm also a little bit uh obsessive about resistance training, and you know, I'm always like women should increase their bone density so that you can you don't have fragile bones when you're elderly. Um, but that's not usually the motivator for people to go work out, right?

Karen McFarlane: 26:59

No, not mine.

Brittany S. Hale: 27:01

Yeah, but you know, I'm thinking of 80-year-old future me, right? And I want her to have a good existence and I want her to, you know, still be traipseing around the world having a blast.

Karen McFarlane: 27:12

So well, uh I was chatting with this woman maybe a couple months ago, and her husband's a trainer. And she told me a story of him training this elderly woman, let's say she was 80-something. I think she was 80-something actually. Um, trained her for a few months or whatever it was. And she fell down the stairs in her daughter's house, broke nothing, not one thing. She was so strong. Right. So you're thinking in the right way.

Brittany S. Hale: 27:54

Um, Gretchen Rubin calls it like a questioner. In order for me to be motivated, I need to understand why I'm doing something. I'm not the taskmaster, right? Where you're just like put widget A into box B. But why? Why? What happens if I put, you know, all of these things? It's it's very irritating. It could be a totally different way to do it. That's fast. That could be a totally different way to do it. You know, maybe we don't need to do it at this time. I don't know. So when I am making lifestyle changes, that's important to me. So part of the sleep hygiene is, you know, I want I want my brain to to have a break. I don't want to get, you know, Alzheimer's, and I want to, you know, I want to make sure that I can my level of executive function is at an appropriate rate right now. So we'll do the daily crossword puzzles. We'll go to sleep.

Karen McFarlane: 28:52

Yeah. Well, I see why this is one of your strengths. It is not one of my far, it is not. But I am working on it. Although parts of it is sleep is really important to me, but I'm a late night person. I have to get at least eight hours, is good, eight to nine is good, minimum seven. And if I don't get seven, that's technically my fault because I just stayed up an hour or so too late. So that's usually me. And as I've gotten older, like I I call it my witching hour, which is usually 2 a.m. If I go to if I try to sleep after 2 a.m., I'm not really sleeping. And my whole day the next day kind of mesh up because I haven't gotten that balance in my in my brain. So I know there's a direct connection between my lack of sleep and productivity.

Brittany S. Hale: 29:43

I can't, I can't fake it. And I never have been able to fake it, right? Like the old baggers were just like, oh man, I stayed up studying or whatever. And it's like, no, I will I will wake up earlier. I'm never waking up earlier, no. It's never happening. I'm not a morning person. Um I'm gonna I gotta get my sleep.

Karen McFarlane: 30:04

Yeah. For me, sleep, I mean, when I became pregnant with my son, my mother said to me, What are you gonna do? You will love to sleep. How are you going to manage? And my answer was, Is baby gonna do exactly what I do? All right. He did not. He did not, but it got so bad that around, I don't know, four or five, I brought him to the doctor and I was like, This kid won't sleep. You need to do something. He was like, he asked me a bunch of questions, and all of my answers were pretty benign. He was like, Okay, so I know what the problem is. And I'm like, what? Tell me, what are we gonna do? He's like, the problem is you. I was like, what? He's like, listen, he doesn't need that much sleep. You know, he's functioning well the next day with whatever sleep he gets. He doesn't need much sleep. You need sleep, so you just want him to sleep. And I was like, Yes! Yes, I can't do this anymore. She's like, I don't, he's like, I don't know. Essentially, I taught my son that yeah, he can stay up, but I need to sleep and do not wake me. Yeah, or you will see a different person. And he learned to leave me alone. Yeah, no, he was very good, you know. We went through the rules, you know, and as he got older, it became easier. But like, you know, you might want a snack. I had a basket of snacks in the room, you know. I did all the things so he didn't need to wander, or he was never really a bad kid and wouldn't do weird things anyway. He's never that child. So, you know, little things that I knew he'd want or would have asked me for, I just made accommodations for them. And as it got older, that you know, that those things changed. And he just he learned not to wake me up. Even to this day, he leaves me alone because the sleep isn't funny.

Brittany S. Hale: 31:58

I can't be, I can't be mad. It's great parenting. Because that is a very real fear I have about motherhood is the sleep factor. That was like every two hours. No, no, no, that will well do it.

Karen McFarlane: 32:14

Yeah, there's there's adjustments you can make on that, but I'm not gonna talk about them here because people might judge me. So when you're ready, I got you. Because remember, my need is to sleep, and he's perfectly fine. My son is perfectly fine. But I do need to make more time for food. Like I don't, I will sit and get and roast in something, and I don't make time for meaningful meals. I will graze, but I have to do meaningful meals. Water is something I have I'm trying much, you know, more to incorporate much more of. I never used to like water, but then I discovered it's really about two weird things: either the pH, if it's in a bottle, or it has to be in a glass and it can be whatever water it is. And I just kind of discovered that by accident, you know. So for instance, like the most popular water is Poland Spring. It's very difficult for me to drink it out of a bottle, but to pour it in the glass, I'm completely fine. I have no idea it's Poland Spring. But if it's in a bottle, it has to be like Icelandic water or something like that. So I understood what my little quirks were about it, and now I can drink more of it. So I make a better effort in that regard. And exercise is something where the why is really important. Now, I don't want generic wise, and this is where I'm gonna need more help. Is I need the why for me. I should do this exercise, and it's gonna get me, me, this result, which means I need a whole body scan, right? Right, and some very customized analysis of what's going on specifically as a human. Right. Exactly. Because you you can't just tell me not to do certain things because sometimes it doesn't even equate to. I'll just give you an example. So my cholesterol's high now, right? And I go to my doctor, I'm like, I don't understand. I eat so well now. I actually eat so well now. I eat so well now. He's like, you can't eat this. This would be like eating a stick of butter a day, and I know you don't do that. This is hereditary. Interesting. And I was like, so why am I eating well?

Brittany S. Hale: 34:34

Right.

Karen McFarlane: 34:35

I can go back to eating all the crap. Okay, right? So, like that happens, and I'm like, dang, I thought I was doing all the right things, and that's gonna make me slip, right? So, anyway, I need to understand the why behind all of those things in order for me to do it, because I don't want to do it. Right. Right. So, anyway, there's always different ways to improve, but I think overall, having the language for it, right? Understanding it, but also understanding how they work together within yourself, but also with within other people is really important. And I think the smarter we can all get about accepting that all of these modes of of thinking are very useful and good. You shouldn't over-rely on any one of them. You should use them as a balanced approach, however, you can, and it's case by case, but just know that you can flip between them like light switches or little exactly a panel of some sort, electrical panel, you flick things on and off, and um, it just enhances your brain agility overall.

Brittany S. Hale: 35:44

I love that, I love the visual of that.

Karen McFarlane: 35:47

Yeah, so thank you for indulging me and helping with my homework.

Brittany S. Hale: 35:52

This was fun homework.

Karen McFarlane: 35:54

I have to go write this up now, right? And uh submit it, but it's it's definitely a fun class and uh not what I expected, which is actually good.

Brittany S. Hale: 36:06

Yeah, it reads into your creativity, I think.

Speaker 2: 36:09

Exactly, exactly.

Karen McFarlane: 36:12

All right, well, thanks again, Brittany.

Brittany S. Hale: 36:14

Thank you.