Karen McFarlane: 0:35

Hey Brittany, we're back.

Brittany S. Hale: 0:37

We're back. We're done. So great seeing your lovely face. How are you?

Karen McFarlane: 0:43

I am good. I'm happy to see you. What's going on? What's new? What's new? Let's see. Um, you know, this week has been pretty, I want to say calm. And I think the reason why is because I haven't talked to a lot of people. Accurate, accurate. And, you know, one of the things that I realize is when I put my phone on silent, let's say like I'm on this call with you, and I forget to turn it back on, then I actually have more peace, right? Because I don't hear the alarms going off, little notifications, none of that. And, you know, sometimes I'm like, oh my gosh, it's oddly quiet. And then of course I go look, and there's a laundry list of emails and text messages and things of that nature. But for a short period of time, I have some peace. I think I need to be more intentional about creating that dead space for myself. That.

Brittany S. Hale: 1:42

You know, I'm a fan of calendar blocking. So sometimes I will quite literally block off a space to take a walk, stare at my plants, playing with the dog, just so that, because in my mind, if I'm not in a meeting, I am available.

Karen McFarlane: 2:00

Mm-hmm.

Brittany S. Hale: 2:02

And sometimes we need to take seriously the opportunity to default to our highest joy.

Karen McFarlane: 2:09

You know, you're absolutely right. I've done a lot of reflecting too on how do I increase my productivity. I have to think about this all the time. Because I have tried calendar blocking. Okay. If I'm blocking my own time, I can move that time. So I also have issues with my whole day being free because then I could do stuff later. But if I have one meeting or one thing that's not my own, no matter what portion of the day it's in, that actually makes me super productive because I'm in a time block. Right? I have a deadline associated with it that's not my own. But I have to get better with my own deadlines.

Brittany S. Hale: 2:56

So I think if you're motivated by those external means of accountability, I don't know.

Karen McFarlane: 3:06

Add me. Add me to your your fun calendar. I'll text you. Are you having fun? I'm having fun. And then when I'm not, I'll be guilty.

Brittany S. Hale: 3:19

No guilt, just a gentle nudge, a gentle plug.

Karen McFarlane: 3:22

Just saying, you know. Something fun. It's very it's interesting how I separate my personal joy from everything else. Because, like I just said, if I'm accountable to other people, I said I'm gonna do something, I owe somebody a phone call, an answer, whatever it is. Those things always happen. I'm extremely responsive because I know people need answers, right? In order to move forward and do what they have to do. So I prioritize those things. If I'm answering to myself, it can be a little bit squidgy. But it's interesting how I kind of bucket those things differently, particularly when I am leading people, right? Because the strategy and direction is really important in order for everything to keep going and keep working. And it's really important for me to provide people with the tools they need to be do a good job and be their best selves in their job so that they can prioritize not only the work stuff, but also their personal stuff as well within their work day. It's a lot like leadership. It might be. It might be, which I think is the topic. You're an awesome leader. Well, you know, I've had a long career, and I can look back and think about some of the people who were incredible leaders, some of the people who weren't so great, and obviously those in the middle were always learning. And because of the nature of what I do, which is as a fractional CMO, I go in and lead teams and people in different organizations for different amounts of time, right? So I have this like benefit of working with a lot of different companies. I have the benefit of working with founders who are leading the whole organization or CEOs. I also have the benefit of working with peers, right? From other C-suite peers, say sales product, etc., but also other teams below that level and watching them interact with their teams and getting things done. And so I see a lot of people, right? And it's just interesting how different it is across the board. And you kind of get a sense of what's effective and what's not effective. But of course, that changes with the industry, with the culture, with the individual people, you know, that's leading and that's reporting into them. So it's a very highly complex situation that requires a lot of adaptability and agility. And I can imagine you see a lot of that too.

Brittany S. Hale: 6:00

100%. I um, and I think you give a lot of grace to the variances in the industry because although on the surface they may seem different, underneath there are a lot of similarities. And so many of them come down to communication, conflict, the fear of it, the avoidance of it, sometimes to the detriment of the team and the business as a whole. And yeah, you know, I think it's frustrating that we don't give people space and room to discover their leadership style and really stand in that as part of their identity as a professional, because there is no one way to lead outside of, you know, a great leader is successful in their ability to lead others. But um there's so many different ways to do that.

Karen McFarlane: 7:03

Absolutely. Just taking from my experience, I'm gonna use like two really broad examples. But as I mentioned, there's my work for say corporations, but then there's my leadership work for nonprofits in the nonprofit space, right? So one of the biggest lessons that I learned being president of the American Marketing Association of New York and also president of the uh professional chapters council for the national organization of AMA, the American Marketing Association, is that leading people who are volunteers versus leading people who you who receive a paycheck, right? Yes, requires a completely different skill set. And I had to learn that. So even though I had lots of experience leading in corporations, that new experience leading in this nonprofit space with volunteers was something that I had to adapt my style to. I had to first figure out, okay, I know what I'm good at, right? But how does that translate? Because the currency there is people's time. They're not required to give it to you. And what you want is more of it when they can literally be doing anything else to fulfill their personal joy, right? So how do you translate that? And it's just an interesting dynamic versus in corporations, people are there for a set number of hours. Some will give you more based on the situation, but their motivations are very different when it comes to the general outcome. However, the throughput I find across that is always about value. What are people getting in return for their time, despite being paid for it or despite not being paid for it? They want to know that they're contributing in a meaningful way and that it has not only an ROI for them, but for the greater purpose of the organization.

Brittany S. Hale: 9:25

Yeah. You know, I just did a fireside chat with my alma mater, and I sat down with the incoming chair of the Alumni Association, speaking in front of 600,000 alumni, right, and having this very open conversation. And he said, essentially, anytime you're in these spaces where you're asking people to give, it's either time, talent, or treasure. And if you want to engage people who are lacking one or the other, then to your point, you have to provide enough value that you will eventually get whatever's lacking. If they have talent and treasure, but they don't have the time, you want to eventually get to the point where they are dedicating their time there. More often than not, people who want to be involved, especially when it comes to nonprofits, are lacking the treasure, right? They may have the time, they may want to donate their talents, what they do in their professional capacity. And you're right. It it is a it is a big ask to ask people to give funds and to give their time. So, what have you come across? What are what are some of your learnings?

Karen McFarlane: 10:41

So, one of the big, the big aspects of everything is something you talked about a little earlier, is that one of the barriers is always the interpersonal aspect. It's not necessarily the work. Now, putting aside the fact that some people just don't have the talents that they think that they have, but addressing that is still an interpersonal issue, right? And when you talk about time, some people don't have the time or don't know how to use their time appropriately. Again, you have to talk about those things. And then treasure is treasure, right? So if people do have money, you have to have a conversation about giving it up. Exactly. Exactly. And if they don't, um, it also means that we have to make sure we put value on the time and the talent, right? We can't say because you can't give money in a nonprofit setting that you have no value.

unknown: 11:41

Right.

Karen McFarlane: 11:42

So then it just turns around it turns back to me as how do you define value and how do you increase that value? So if they lack the talent, how are you going to invest in that person to increase their value? And if the time is not being used properly, how do you help them get ROI out of their time? But at the end of the day, my general belief system is everybody wants to do well. They may they they may just not know exactly how to go about it. Everybody wants to be better. So even if you have a high performer, that high performer still wants to perform at a higher level. And you also need to manage the um, oh gosh, I forgot the word, it's not interpersonal or the intrapersonal group aspect of it, right? To make sure that the high performers and the low performers aren't being taken taken advantage of in any meaningful way because that adds to you know lack of productivity and resentments and all of those different things. And so it's important for leaders to really understand whether someone's getting paid or whether someone's not getting paid, even especially if they're not getting paid, right? Especially if they're not getting paid. What's their why and how can you activate them around their why? How do you turn their weaknesses into strengths? I just want to like sit on that for a second. I'm a believer that you don't have to actually be strong where you're weak, but you do have to mitigate for it. You I I might be strong in three main areas, right? And I'm weak at, I don't know. Let's talk about marketing, for example. I can admit that I feel weak in SEO, specifically SEO. I don't like it, right? I think it's a, but I respect the skill and I think it's something that people have to really dive deep into. And so I don't ever purport myself to be an SEO expert. Now, one could say, Karen, you need to be. You need to go develop that skill and turn that into a strength, right? And I like, really though? Who could I partner with someone, bring someone on the team that has that skill set and that mindset, right? That can do the thing that's going to take me three hours in 30 minutes. Isn't that more productive and higher ROI than me trying to learn and be everything?

Brittany S. Hale: 14:20

I am so glad that you said it. And again, just to make sure that I have it correctly and that our listeners have it correctly. You have a responsibility to mitigate your weaknesses. Your weaknesses do not have to become your strengths, but you do have a responsibility to mitigate them. Yes. I love that so much because as you were speaking about it, and this whole conversation to me seems like a um really kind of a confluence of power and process. Right. And when I'm thinking about the the process of exerting your power, exerting your leadership, it is so inefficient if you're at 75%, 85%, 95% in other spaces, and 3% here, to now divert all of your processing power, all of your time to moving this particular skill to a point that you may or may not be successful in doing, right? And so for you to have that collaborative piece to jump in and say, now I'm gonna partner with the SEO expert. I don't need to be the expert at it. I just need to know where the gaps lie and account for them. Exactly.

Karen McFarlane: 15:45

Brilliant. But here's the thing, nobody can be good at everything. That's a farce. But what you, as a leader, what you need to be good at is recognizing talent and, like you said, filling the gaps of those talent and putting the puzzle pieces together to create a really powerful engine that can move forward towards your goals. One person cannot be brilliant in everything. And even if they are brilliant, they may not have the time to give it the right focus that it needs. Right. So there's lots of smart people, but we all have the same amount of time. And so, how do you manage that effectively? And how do you empower people to grow and be their best selves and to develop new skills that could even surpass your own? Correct. Which is also a goal of yours.

Brittany S. Hale: 16:38

Exactly. And, you know, I think very often many of us have seen examples of leadership. I say that in quotes, or they we've seen examples of work environments where it's so highly combative that there is no room for collaboration. And so we do labor under this delusion that we need to be everything, we need to be experts in everything and execute at a high level, regardless of whether or not that's our individual skill. And it exhausts you as a person, it exhausts your capabilities, it fractures trust in your capabilities because the cracks are gonna show. If you were to take on a client who specifically wanted SEO and they specifically wanted to work with you, and you haven't been up front, you haven't guided them along to say, and this is my partner in doing this work, you're gonna be really frustrated. If you say, Okay, here's Sam. Sam's gonna help you out there. All right, have a great time. And if you just go back, if you end up saying, I actually don't know how to do this, not great.

Karen McFarlane: 17:59

Not great. And you know, I can tell you that it is very empowering to be able to say, hey, here's what I'm really good at. This is what you're gonna get. This is the ROI you're gonna receive. I'm also really good at spotting that in other people. It's kind of like a superpower. I know what they can do, what they can't do, what they need coaching on. Right. Um I know what they'll really be bad at too. Yeah. And you have to calculate the costs of those things. Yeah, and when you can be honest about what those things are up front, you could put all your cards on the table, then you can begin to solve for that. Because there's always something, some problem to solve. Even if you feel like you have it perfectly laid out, at some point there's gonna be a crack, as you talked about, right? It's gonna be, and you have to fill that gap too. And you need to know how to fill that at any moment in time and how to navigate the gap when you're looking for a way to fill it. What's gonna happen, what has to fall away, and just being able to adapt to some level of unpredictability is really important because even your best employee that's got it all the way together, something could happen in their life that was unexpected. And then what are you gonna do? Right. So in a good way, too, right?

Brittany S. Hale: 19:40

They can they can win the lottery and move to Fiji. Sell seashells by the seashore. There you go. That still leaves you with a gap in in that person's particular skill set.

Karen McFarlane: 19:55

Yeah, yeah. You always have to be succession planning, although it sounds kind of harsh, right? But you do have to plan for life events as well as your own. Somebody's doing it for you. Yes. Right in your role as well.

Brittany S. Hale: 20:11

And I think that is the it's hubris, right? It's it's the we get so wrapped up in our work and we believe no one else can do it, and we see companies, organizations solving for that every day.

Karen McFarlane: 20:25

You know, the most humbling experience, I think, for some. I'm gonna use AMA as another as an example. Is the model is that the leadership transitions every year or two years. I was president for two years for the New York chapter. It's usually one year for most for most chapters. And then on the council as well, right? I was president of the council for one year. And so there is a changing of the guard. And so where you have been positioned to have all this quote unquote power for a period of time, you know, you might be, you know, the VP or president-elect, and then you're a president slash CEO, like where. And then you have to give that role up. And somebody else is taking it over, somebody else is leading. And so it is, and you're still there. Your role is to still be there, not go on to something else. Right. And so that's also a lesson in and of itself in showing you, hey, I did this and I did this really great for this amount of time. And now somebody else is coming in. And they can do it great too. It may be different, but it can still be great. Or it can not be great.

Brittany S. Hale: 21:46

And you also have to learn that it's no longer your this is something that we see time and time and time again. And especially when you're in nonprofit or mission-aligned organizations, there's that uh these things are near and dear to your heart, right? It means a lot to you, and you have you put a lot of pride in your leadership. And sometimes we forget that different is not deficient. This person can still move the organization forward, even if they're not doing so in your way, even if they're approaching it in a way that is not your style, that's okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Karen McFarlane: 22:31

And it's it's just a huge lesson because, like, what happens with me, or what's been happening with me, is that because I've been there, done that, got a lot of information, like I'm old pro at this, right? I have lots of answers or lots of opinions, also. And I have to train myself that not everybody wants them or needs them because they have their vision that I don't know about. And I have to trust and hand it over to the next class, right? To do what I did and hopefully even better. And it's just good training, right? Because you, when you have that hubris, you think nobody can do it better than me. If they don't do it this way, it's gonna fail. And you could also feel like if they are doing it better, you could have jealousy around that, right? Because that's just the nature of people. But it is very freeing also when you can just let that go. Right. And I don't know how to describe it, but this sounds a lot like parenthood in some ways. It sounds like what? What parenthood? You know what? In some ways, yes. Okay, okay. Yes. So my mother and my son were talking, and he went to go write something, and my mother said, Hey, you should go look at what he's writing. Because he's responding, it's an important response to something. And so I was like, Okay, all right. So I go in there, I'm like, what are you writing? And he reads it to me. I can offer nothing. I turned around, I was like, Yeah, I you you don't need me. I just worked out, I don't even need to comment. And I told my mother, like, I couldn't even write it that way. So, you know, so yes, in some ways, because he's doing better than I am, right? He has developed these. Which is a sign of a job well done. Yes, exactly. Now, the tricky part is if you see something not being well done, right? What are you gonna do? And sometimes you have to just mind your business and let it all play out. Because here's the other thing that I've learned, and it's very hard for me. But I have this ability to kind of see the forest through the trees around the corner or the woods, I can see it coming further than a lot of people. But people have to experience things in their own way, yes, they have to have the bumps and the bruises. I I cannot protect them. And also they might not believe me because while they may be able to see some of the forest through the trees, they can't see around the corner and down the hill and through the through the cave and all that. I can see that. So there's a there's a certain point where they're just not going to trust what I'm saying because I'm too far ahead. I used to be offended by that. I am no longer offended by that. I understand why. But at the end of the day, the lesson is a lesson, and everybody needs to experience that lesson. Now, of course, if it's going to have a detrimental effect on the business, the ROI of the business, you have to help people try to course correct. And depending on your position, if you're a leader, you're gonna have to course correct people in a meaningful way, right? But to the extent that you can allow people to experience the experience, you should. Because that's gonna help them grow. Help me grow. I think this is amazing, quite frankly.

Brittany S. Hale: 26:06

I have no notes, but you're you're absolutely right. Like, I don't, I just I'm just sitting back and I'm like, you know, this is true.

Karen McFarlane: 26:15

This this makes a lot of sense. Um one of the biggest things though is conflict, though. I know we've talked about this in the past, right? Like those tough conversations, yeah, the impact of that. And I love how you describe conflict. Can you just give that to the listeners again?

Brittany S. Hale: 26:35

Yeah, so I think of conflict as just kind of the space between what we want and what we're experiencing. And I think from a very early age, we are we are forced to see conflict as a negative thing, you know, and see it as a problem and see it as something that we just need to avoid at all costs. And I think there's so much lost there because we can't solve for those gaps if we don't address conflict.

unknown: 27:12

Yep.

Brittany S. Hale: 27:13

And if yeah, sorry. No, I mean you know, if if someone is taking over AMA and they want to do things a particular way, and you advise against it, and no one has the conversation for fear of conflict, they don't get the benefit of your experience and you seeing the forest for the trees and having survived the bumps and bruises of trying to do it that way before. And the organization doesn't get the benefit of you sharing these experiences, and the person doesn't get the benefit of using their time, talent, treasure, and energy in a way that's best aligned with what they want to do for the org. There's no need to reinvent the wheel, if you will.

Karen McFarlane: 28:07

Or maybe there is, like I can be wrong, right? And so that's where the debate comes in because again, I don't really know it's in the person's head. And so, but if you're afraid to have the debate or have, you know, and join into that conversation, we never learn the different perspectives. So it's important to, I think, to disagree in in some ways or challenge, right? It's important to do it everything respectfully, right? But it's okay to do those things, be like, hey, I think it's a little bit different. And you know, ask the questions, well, let me, well, how do you think about it? You know, how does that process work differently from you? People's brains, I learned this from my son too. My son has a different processing system, right? And it's so different from mine. I'm I usually tilt my head like, huh? Right. Why why don't why not? You know, I don't get it. Yeah. But what you know, I had to learn to do is when I tilt my head like, huh, don't don't make it sound like you're wrong or you're crazy, but just really be interested and curious around how that works in his mind. And I'll say, you know, I I don't understand. Can you just explain that to me in a different way? Because sometimes I don't get it. And then, you know, he will, and I'll be like, okay, and it might take a few back and forths, and that's conflict, right? Because we're getting frustrated with each other. Why don't you understand it this way? You want to understand? Right. But the respectful discourse, the goal is the same. We want to both understand. And I think that that's an important element of any two-way conversation is understanding where you both want to be. And you might have different paths of getting there, but you have to be open and open to listen and also not listen defensively. Exactly. Some of these conversations are really hard. So, Brittany, what is I've been doing a lot of talking.

Brittany S. Hale: 30:14

Love it. Thank you very much. What is your top leadership lesson? That is a tough one. I I would say my top leadership lesson is learning how to withstand conflict. If you are afraid to have the conversation, if you're afraid to give the feedback, if you're afraid to connect.

Karen McFarlane: 30:33

Yeah. You're how do people develop the skills to work up the courage to have the tough conversations?

Brittany S. Hale: 30:42

When I was in uh an accelerator for company I'd started, I'd listened to a podcast where a guy was working on his ability to withstand rejection. And so he every day asks random strangers questions that he was likely to get a no to. So he would go to the grocery store, buy groceries, ask them if they would give it to him for free. They would say no. He might go up to a complete stranger and ask them something ridiculous, like, can I have your umbrella? On a sunny day, mind you. They would say no. He he kept doing these things to the point to where he was desensitized to it, to where rejection became kind of a starting point instead of the end point and the thing that just completely obliterated him. Should also note that sometimes people were like, sure, we'll give you a discount, you know, whatever. So I think if people are looking to handle conflict differently or get curious about it, one thing that they should ask the next time they are feeling uncomfortable in a conversation, just ask yourself why you're feeling uncomfortable. Do you feel as if this person's violating a boundary? Do you feel like there's an issue with the tone in which they spoke to you? Do you feel what's happening within that conversation where you're experiencing a gap between what you want and what you're experiencing? Ask yourself: do we want the same thing in this conversation? It's a relationship. Do we want this relationship to work? Do we want to enjoy this meal together? Do we want this company to be successful?

Karen McFarlane: 32:28

And then go from there. It's a really simple way for people to activate, right? It's not that complicated. It may be uncomfortable, but I like how you frame it. It's it's really about starting with some curiosity first and goals. Where do you want to be? A friend of mine who, you know, was training me on conflict. One of the things he talked about was the lion in the room, this concept of the lion in the room. And the framing put around that was you and I are having a conflict going back and forth, but what if a lion actually walked in the room? Then all of a sudden, what you and I were having trouble with becomes less important because now we both have the same issue. Exactly. How are we gonna resolve the lion? Getting away from the lion. Right. So part of that was trying to externalize that conflict and putting it on the lion so that you both are equally trying to solve this problem from the same with the same goal in mind. Yeah. Yeah. And I really love that analogy that it's always stuck with me. And I think about that. You know, what is the lion in the room? Yeah. In this conversation. And by doing so, it actually helps me uh ask the question, make the phone call. I'm not saying I like to do those things. I'm not saying that there might not still be some apprehension around it. But I also think about what if I don't? What happens if I let this linger? What is the residual effect not only between me and that person, but to other people? So I like to nip things in the bud. And just to bring it back to one of our favorite topics, which is the real housewives who have unending conflict. The one thing that I'm prerequisite I do appreciate it, although sometimes it feels very tired and unrealistic, is that they're always trying to fix it. But they typically always have this goal focused on an outcome is how can we get back to being friends or at least move cordial and move forward and be in this amongst the same people.

unknown: 35:03

Yeah.

Karen McFarlane: 35:03

And I think that's just a great lesson that they're teaching everyone. I wish they would do it a little bit better, but yes, that's what they're doing. Yes.

Brittany S. Hale: 35:13

And you know, one of the things I like to get people on a trail of yes, actually. So I'll start with can we agree? And I'll use a bunch of different things. Can we agree that again it can be anything? And once we say, yes, yes, yes, we're starting to build a connection here. Because then it's allowing for us to understand that we have so many things in common that the gap that we're experiencing probably isn't as big a gap as we think it is.

Karen McFarlane: 35:55

Because we agree on so much. It never is. We have more in common than we don't. We have our goals are similar, more so aligned. They're moving in the same parallel direction. They're not usually typically perpendicular. And I think emotions override that sometimes. And so you have to get rid of the emotion as best as you can in order to see some of those things clearly. So I think the other question to ask yourself is why do I feel this way? And are those feelings based in facts? Yes, yes. So, yeah, I mean, I mean, we kind of morphed a little bit, but I think that part of leadership, actually, I think the bulk of leadership is around the interpersonal aspects of communication and relationships. And people do stuff because they feel valued and safe. They don't have to like you. Yeah. Right? But they feel valued and safe in those environments in order to be their best selves. And I think that the number one character traits of a leader is around empathy, respect, and understanding for the people that work for you, with you, and around you. And if you start from that viewpoint, there's a lot you can get done. The other stuff is skills and skill building, and lots of people can look at lots of things.

Brittany S. Hale: 37:23

Yeah. You know, I heard someone say that Warren Buffett said that there's only three things he's looking for in every person. Have you heard those? Maybe. Go ahead, say I don't know. I can't quote the three things, so uh so it's intelligence, enthusiasm, and integrity. And without the last one, all you have is malice.

Karen McFarlane: 37:47

So I think we should end on that point.

unknown: 37:53

Okay.

Karen McFarlane: 37:54

I think that that's a perfect ending to this whole segment. Well, goal isn't a Warren Buffett, and goal isn't a Britney.

Brittany S. Hale: 38:04

And I was just gonna say, listen to Karen, okay.

Karen McFarlane: 38:09

The gem that you're gonna do.

Brittany S. Hale: 38:14

I wrote it down. Thank you.

Karen McFarlane: 38:18

All right, until next time.