Karen McFarlane: 0:37

Hi, brittany Hi.

Brittany S. Hale: 0:39

Karen.

Karen McFarlane: 0:42

We are back for another episode of the E-Word. It's exciting.

Brittany S. Hale: 0:48

It is exciting.

Karen McFarlane: 0:49

How are you? I'm good. I've been super busy the past couple of weeks just getting all of my to-dos in order. You know, when you start making a list of all the things you have to do and you start to look at it, it becomes very overwhelming. But I think I have a process now for focusing a little bit better than I have in the past, so it feels good to tick things off.

Brittany S. Hale: 1:14

Do you want to share a little bit about what that process is, or is that to be continued?

Karen McFarlane: 1:19

It's still to be continued, but, you know, over the years I have always tried to find a particular system that didn't annoy me when things popped up in front of me in terms of what I had to do Because I ultimately am not the best list maker Like something that I put on the list is really a multi-step process, right.

Karen McFarlane: 1:37

So, it, you know, and some things are, oh, I can do this in three minutes and so. But I also didn't want it to live outside of, I guess, my calendar. So I never truly properly used Google Tasks. It's very simple and, while you might want some more bells and whistles, for me the simplicity is perfect and I can see this whole board in front of me.

Karen McFarlane: 2:03

I guess it's kind of like a Trello board or maybe a sauna board, but those things live outside of my calendar and you kind of look at all of those things and I have them in different categories and it's sorted by the date. So I could say, hey, today I'm supposed to work on these three, four things, and then I can move the dates around fairly easily because I'm mostly accountable to myself and I don't have to feel so bad about it, because you feel bad when you keep seeing things that you're missing. It will say past, but I can be like, okay, that could just go for next week. So this is working for me for the past couple of weeks, okay, and we'll see if it keeps working, just updated.

Karen McFarlane: 2:45

I will. I will, but we're going to talk about something.

Brittany S. Hale: 2:55

It sounds like your task list was kind of a plot twist to how you were normally functioning right. You had to switch something. It wasn't working. You had to pivot Right, and there's a certain wisdom in that right. So when we're talking about eudaimonia, when we're talking about the seven virtues, if you're unfamiliar with that, go back what two, three episodes and we're breaking that down. But I think embracing the pivot is really one of the most, if not the most, valuable skill right now.

Karen McFarlane: 3:41

I totally agree. I mean, with what's going on in the political environment, in the economy, particularly with certain demographics. Pivoting is the top skill that you have to embrace, and I think it's about recognizing where you are, what the environment is, and then trying to figure out your place in the world and how you might have to shift in order to recalibrate and take your place in a new way in this world.

Brittany S. Hale: 4:16

And that's okay, it's experimentation, it's totally fine, and I think there's some other people who are okay with it. So I am in the midst of a pivot More to share soon, which I'm really excited about, okay. And so I was just scrolling through my timeline and I saw Tabitha Brown. Are you familiar?

Karen McFarlane: 4:41

Yeah, I know a little bit about her, but we should share more about her for the audience.

Brittany S. Hale: 4:46

For those who are unfamiliar, tabitha Brown is an actress and influencer and inspiration to many. I believe she still has a children's show on Netflix. She kept many of us company during the pandemic with words of inspiration and recently had a licensing deal with Target where she licensed her image for a number of vegan products food products, I think she had maybe like a hair care line, some houseware items as well. She is a vegan and I think that's part of what drew people to her is that she's making vegan cooking and the vegan lifestyle a little bit more accessible and flavorful to people who were unfamiliar with it. Am I missing anything?

Karen McFarlane: 5:48

I think you got everything Actress, author, cook, influencer, business owner creator. The ultimate portfolio career example.

Brittany S. Hale: 6:05

And such a ray of sunshine, at least from my perspective. I've come across her posts, and so her post on I want to say maybe it was last Tuesday, the second she posted a video and she just quote entrepreneurship. It's not for everybody, that doesn't mean it's not for you, but right now, these last few months, few years, she says, baby, if it ain't been working for you and you're doing a lot of robbing Peter to pay Paul, it's time for you to get a job. Initial thoughts and impressions.

Karen McFarlane: 6:58

Well, given her background and just the context of her total brand and personality. I am personally not offended by that opinion. And let's be clear, it's her opinion, right, and it's her opinion based on the collection of her experiences. So oftentimes we look to successful people and we want to know how they got it done. You know what was their mindset, what were the specific steps they took. We look to them for advice and counsel. She's offering free advice and counsel again from her perspective on her social media channel. But what was a little concerning is the minute people don't like what that is. Then they add some other layers to it that may or may not have been there.

Brittany S. Hale: 7:55

Exactly, and I should note that Tamitha is also. She's also very open about her faith, and so in the video she says you can have a dream, you can have a goal, you can have a vision that God has given you and you can still have a job while pursuing it. Talking to people who burnt all their bridges up? You burnt your bridges because you refused to get a little side hustle or job, to have income coming in while pursuing your passion. I'm not talking to people who are trying to get jobs. I'm not talking about the people who do have a little job. I'm Victor Stillheart.

Brittany S. Hale: 8:25

I'm not talking about you, and this was an Assemblant video that she needed to post to clarify because there was such outrage and such a strong response. I was actually really surprised by how strong the response was to what she said, because I thought what she said was emblematic of the conversations that I've been having seeing had among so many entrepreneurs. You know, I think it's just part of the journey, right? Entrepreneurs have that journey where there's ups and downs and sometimes you know those pivots are important to sustain yourself. I don't think anybody's asking for you to start in the messy minute, right? No, it's just one pathway, right?

Karen McFarlane: 9:23

So many of the previous models of entrepreneurship really looked like a very straight line to success. You work hard, you dig deep, you focus, you ignore everything else around you and success will come to you. And that really happens for a few people, right. But, like you said, the messy middle people really don't talk about the messy middle because it is messy, it's not clean and clear. Talk about the messy middle because it is messy, it's not clean and clear. But that's the part that people really need to understand is it's not this straight shot to the top.

Karen McFarlane: 10:03

Many times you have to, as we talked about in the beginning, pivot and pivot a few times, not just one time. It might be three, four, five, 10 times, until you get to the place where you need to be. And when I hear her say that, I feel like she's specifically talking to the people where it may just not be working in the way that you envisioned it right now and you're struggling and you have a choice, that's choices to continue the struggle and suffer, to have that amazing story where you rise to the top right, which could be possible, or you pivot to create some stability for yourself so that you can now refocus and do what you have always dreamt to do. That's what I hear from what she says.

Brittany S. Hale: 11:01

I think that makes a lot of sense. And you know I mean during marketing. You know I understand the value of having the straight shot story. It's easy to digest, it's quick, it's punchy and it's aspirational and for many people it's inaccessible. Yeah, so we know that for many entrepreneurs, especially entrepreneurs who are women, that that messy middle is complicated by familial obligations, whether it's children, parents, significant others. There's tons of things that can tug at your attention and there's rarely the expectation that you silo yourself and dig in and focus and wear the same T-shirt three months in a row and eat ramen, you know, for a year there are women who are doing it, but that's rarely the expectation for some of the unicorns or the women that we see. Right, the expectation is that you are friendly, that you're affable, that you're likable, that you're doing great work and you look great doing it, and that just seems kind of disjointed. Right, it doesn't seem aligned with the more marketable story, but you were the marketing expert, so I defer to you there.

Karen McFarlane: 12:51

I mean, no, that's true, we always want to have a great story to tell and as an entrepreneur, you're supposed to build that story right. People buy into you as a person, rather than to the brand, more readily the brand you're trying to build, and sometimes that's synonymous with the brand, and as you get bigger, than those things separate. And so I think that story is critical. But the other piece too, which is, I think, part of the story, is access to capital, and women have less access. Black women have lesser access to capital.

Karen McFarlane: 13:23

I could just kind of think of, in my past, for example, my friend and I. We always wanted to be entrepreneurs and we were really fond of experimentation. At one point I had my job at HBO, but I was still doing my entrepreneur ventures on the side and at some point I stopped working. I actually left HBO and went to another company, but I left that company to go full throttle on the music business. We were in music at the time and we started our own independent record label and we put out an artist and she was doing really, really well. However, we ran out of money and so that actually stopped that business, that independent record label, which, by the way, I'm pretty sure we were the first female Black-owned independent record label If not the first, then maybe the second. But we were pioneers in that space. But because we lost access to capital, that was the end of that story.

Brittany S. Hale: 14:34

And so that's really critical. I'm not the most worried, by the way. I just want to make clear to our listeners that I too am learning this for the first time and endlessly impressed once again. So more on that later.

Karen McFarlane: 14:47

But okay, yes, but anyway, I'm just telling that story to say that there's so much further that she and I could have gone if A we had access to capital. B particularly in the music industry, people really didn't take us seriously as women because of who we were, and even while we were doing it, we put a man in front of us who worked for us, but we put him as, like, the main face in order to get access to certain rooms and situations to help us, you know, get to where we wanted to go. But ultimately it came down to the money.

Karen McFarlane: 15:28

So you can have a great story, but it has to be backed by that access and that capital, and that's something that you know we all, well, many of us lack in the same way that they don't have access to, in the same way that other groups may have access to it.

Brittany S. Hale: 15:47

Right, right, right, right. And to put some numbers behind it. On average, we know that women tend to receive less than 1% of any sort of venture capital. Black women especially get less than half a percent and it's closer to a quarter of 1% than anything. And that is troubling for a lot of reasons. Right, because you are now having to bootstrap every last bit of your business, every payroll, every new program. Right, it gets expensive. And so you know, I know that from my experience, you know that from your experience.

Brittany S. Hale: 16:36

So, in seeing Tabitha speak about this, I didn't at by this in any particular way, but for me it was more so if we scope out, even sharing her opinion, where we see a lot of headlines about 300,000 Black women, within the past six months, I believe, or you know, having lost their jobs. And this being, what does this mean for the American economy? What does it mean, not only for these women in this group but the country, these women in this group, but the country? A lot of people seem to take what she said as insensitive in light of that happening, and I see them as two different conversations. But I again, I don't know With that backing does it? Do you receive her messaging any differently? I?

Karen McFarlane: 17:51

don't know. With that backing, do you receive her messaging any differently? No, because I think one thing that we as users of these platforms, as people who engage with these different personalities, have to understand or remember is, yes, context in the moment matters, but we also have to layer in full context of the person's brand, personality and experiences, and so no one wants to be judged for one moment right Without that full context, and I feel like that's what happens way too often when people speak out about something. Social media is, in many ways, an informal opportunity to connect with your audiences.

Karen McFarlane: 18:53

It would be much different for me if she did a written piece in Forbes or wherever, because there's an opportunity to you know, research different aspects of that and formulate an opinion about you know the topic in a more in-depth and meaningful way. This is a clip, essentially right, and it does not, to me, represent her full opinion about anything Like you want to be able to have a discourse with her, like if we were on a panel or a fireside. She would make that comment and we'd do some back and forth around it and then you would have fuller context. So we need to allow people that grace and too often everything is looked at in a very siloed way and judged and blown up from that perspective, and that's why it doesn't change anything for me.

Brittany S. Hale: 19:55

Yeah, and that's really my concern is is it too late for us to consider context? Is it too late for us to value context? Because, again, I, I admit I prefer longer form social media because it is hard to gain context. You have to be immensely talented to get your point across in 90 seconds or less and even then people are going to want you to expound, to go further, to share other opinions, found to say you know to go further to share other opinions. So a longer form really does lend itself to getting the message across. But the timeline is is harsh, right, that's so many impressions. Before she could, she had to put out a second video to clarify her statement because of and I wonder if sometimes there's a commitment to misunderstanding, you know, so that people can get across whatever it is that they want to platform, right, so you know.

Karen McFarlane: 21:05

I agree with that. The social discourse isn't always honest and meant to elicit positivity. It is meant to stir the pot in many ways, and also we're intrigued by that. We're being honest, right, we like the controversy. Let's also be honest. Would we be talking about this if there was no controversy today? And so we all contribute to that in some form or fashion and have to be critical about what we're viewing, what we're seeing, right? It's just like now, when I'm on social and I see a video, I have to now ask myself is this AI? Yeah, and it's getting harder and harder To tell the difference, just for our listeners.

Brittany S. Hale: 22:14

You know the videos of the cats flipping pancakes, or you know dogs jumping on trampolines, you know, and they can be really great. Right, look at this security footage of these bears enjoying time on a trampoline. It's not real, you know.

Karen McFarlane: 22:33

But then there are other things that are people interacting in a certain way and you're like wait a second Right. Is this real or did this really happen? I love the thinking.

Brittany S. Hale: 22:46

You know what do the hands look like Exactly? What do the hands look like Exactly? Sometimes you'll look in the background and people's faces are distorted in these really gnarly ways, and so you have to again.

Karen McFarlane: 23:10

You probably spend more time trying to discern whether or not it's AI than you did, consuming the content Exactly, and we can even pull it back. Sometimes because of what's going on out there in the world, people will post content that actually is old, but we don't know that it's old and we think it is happening today because it adds to whatever discourse is going on, and so we're also not used to doing the research to vet the information for ourselves, and it's a lot of work to do it when you're really on the platform to be entertained.

Brittany S. Hale: 23:44

For the most part, you want to have this three, five, seven minute video and then continue to scroll without a second thought, and that also lends itself to increasingly binary thinking. That concerns me. So if I agree with her or disagree with her, then turns to I love her, I hate her and everything else is just confirmation bias at the same right. So I generally have a positive view of Tabitha Brown. I find her to be warm, at least from what I've seen and how she conducts herself, and she's availing herself of the internet. Right, this is part of the internet and I can hold space to say, oh, I agree with this point. Maybe I don't agree at this point. Maybe, you know, I can hold space for the nuance, but that space is rapidly shrinking for all of us, right, because if you don't agree with everything, you're an enemy.

Karen McFarlane: 25:03

Yeah, and that space and grace is really important because we're also making assumptions. So we're assuming or these, the dissenters, are assuming that she knew about she knew the jobs numbers, like they're assuming that she's relating it to that, they're assuming that that all of this is part of her Right. But the people who are defending her, like me and you, we're also assuming that she didn't know All right, or that it wasn't part of it. We don't know at the end of the day. So part of me is like okay, ask her and then, once she answers, then you can have an opinion about that answer Right, and it could still go down a rabbit hole. If she says, no, I wasn't aware, then you can be like well, how don't you know?

Brittany S. Hale: 26:02

How did you not know this? Yeah, these people support you and this is not what you're doing. You know there's no grace, because it could be I was on a flight and I didn't pay for the Wi-Fi. I was taking a nap, I was spending time with my children. There's so many reasons and ways that it could say she could be shooting her show and in the middle say you know what? This is something that I've been feeling, that's been on my heart Again, maybe informed by private conversations that she's had with people in her circle who have said you know what? I need to supplement my income because what I thought would support it did not In the past. She's spoken about her journey to being an actress and how she's had to do things in the interim and lean on her husband for support. And you know, again, she didn't take off. Take off right until the pandemic, when she was at home, like the rest of us at home, like the rest of us, decided to make content about her life, her lifestyle choices, eating food, all that type of stuff.

Karen McFarlane: 27:21

Who knew Exactly. And so her journey, when we talk about pivots too, is like a very slow start and then boom, which is great. But it took a while to get to this point. And now she's here and she's offering her perspective. We also don't know, like why did she even decide to make that comment Right? Like what prompted her to do that Right? What could be a simple answer? Of course I'm making this up, but she could have been somewhere talking to somebody who was struggling in this moment. She gave that piece of advice and she was like oh you know, maybe I should just share that with everyone because that could help a few more people, Like I helped this person who thought it was good advice, I mean, you know. So, again, nuance, grace and space, I think, are key lessons we have to take from anything we engage with on the internet, and also to your point about recognizing our own biases and how that plays into how we view what we engage with.

Brittany S. Hale: 28:35

Right, Right, Because I think even to interpret it in a way that is harmful is to suggest that even having to do that would be. There's something shameful about it, you know, uh, which could could lead to another conversation, but I just, I don't know, I don't know. And so when I, when I think about the E word, when I think about pneumonia and that life well lived, it's to me uh, often being grounded and admired in conflict and helping people see their way through right, Closing that gap between what we want and what we're experiencing. Very often, the key to closing that gap is embracing the change that you're confronted with.

Brittany S. Hale: 29:28

Yeah, and so when I see this, when I see these pivots, you know, or these plot twists, as I like to call them, very often it leads to things that you didn't know. You know who knew the Brown kept sending out, you know her headshots and said staying away from social media. I don't know that she would be household name, I don't know that she would be in people's cupboards and, you know, on people's TV screens. But you know, here she is, I guess.

Karen McFarlane: 30:08

And she's using the platform and there's going to be good and there's going to be bad with it. That comes with it, and I mean you have to be ready for any of that. But one thing you said made me just want to pose this question, although I'm not sure how to really word it, so I'll say it and then maybe I'll have to correct it. But when we think about conflict and we think about the people making comments and we just talked about some of the just genuinely like dishonest commentary why do people want to have this conflict?

Brittany S. Hale: 30:53

Or specifically, why do they?

Karen McFarlane: 30:53

want to have this conflict with her? Right, because they could easily watch it and keep moving, yeah, and not environment at all Right, but they choose to engage in this and create this level of conflict. That's hard to manage, I think, because you're trying to Tabitha is trying to, especially with her second post right Communicate. No, I didn't mean this, I meant that, but she's kind of doing it one way. So we have access to this person to say all sorts of positive and inflammatory things, and their ability to respond is limited in the traditional country.

Brittany S. Hale: 31:44

Right, absolutely. So I'm just going to check really quickly because I don't want to misquote my numbers. Um, when it comes to, when it comes to Threads, which is the space where I saw this, she's actually an Emmy Award winning host. We forgot that, but she has 1.1 million followers. She can travel the ground. You're absolutely right.

Brittany S. Hale: 32:17

Her ability to respond to however many responses there were to that video severely limited. Okay, she just couldn't. It's not going to happen, okay. Okay, so there were, with that particular post, 649 people directly responded, even then, sizable the number of people it reached. So people reposting it or quoting it over a hundred people doing that.

Brittany S. Hale: 33:00

So if you and you may say, okay, it's only a hundred, to sit there and make a hundred different videos to respond to what people are saying, to make 649 different videos to type out 649 different responses, it's not happening. Most people do not have the time or interest in doing that. So I think, to answer your question, why do people do it? Because in platforms, it's always going to benefit them, right, in this particular space, there's a power imbalance. But the great thing about social media is that you have access to people you normally wouldn't have access to. You might have written a strongly worded letter before, whereas now you can post a video response. You can tag Tabitha and if she responds to you, that vaults you to a level of visibility you would never have reached otherwise right If she chooses to respond.

Brittany S. Hale: 34:05

Her 1.1 million followers may have eyes on you. And then the question becomes do you have anything of value to offer? Response, right, that's the challenge with virality, right? You know a lot of people, I think, get that huge dopamine rush saying, oh my gosh, all of these people are liking or commenting, or you know whatever. The question is what happens after that? What else do you have to offer? And if it's just simply to show up to disagree with a particular figure, that's not much, I don't think.

Karen McFarlane: 34:49

I mean, you're right, you know I oftentimes, when I'm, you know, on Instagram or whatever, I decide if I'm going to comment or not.

Karen McFarlane: 34:58

And part of my decision making is does it really matter if I comment or not? Why do I feel the need to comment positively or negatively? Because I actually am not looking for anyone to respond to me, to be honest, and sometimes I do comment. Most of the times it's just about I feel like I need to express my feelings and move on, and sometimes my feelings aren't that nice, and those are usually when I don't comment. Usually. I'm not saying never Cause.

Karen McFarlane: 35:39

I'll write something out and then I'm like, am I doing this? And then I delete it, so like I I understand the whole what comes next part is a very important question. You need to ask yourself, like, why are you doing this? Do you need to just express yourself yeah and it's one and done and keep it moving, or do you really want to engage in a meaningful dialogue and debate different points of view? So I think also the medium matters. Yes, as I complained to you before, you introduced me to Reddit and so you know, occasionally I will post my opinion and go back and forth with various people.

Brittany S. Hale: 36:26

Right. Right, because you have long form responses, you're also willing to get long form responses and people have a little bit more space to be nuanced and thoughtful Not that they always are, but there's more space to discuss things you know in depth. So, quick, quick, bravo. Housewives tangent. It's relevant, I promise.

Brittany S. Hale: 36:57

Karen Huger of Real Housewives of Potomac fame was recently released after serving almost a year for her driving while under the influence, and local news stations were interviewing people who showed up, one of which was a woman who became Reddit famous if that is a thing because she went to the public trial and she was posting live updates of Karen's trial during the trial, so much so that the judge had an open warning saying you know, whoever is posting should stop. You know, and so she's. There are thousands of people who now and she herself, she's an accountant right, I'm an accountant, I work from home. My boss also loves the show and is like totally fine with me being here. You know, so it was. It makes the world smaller and in some ways it can be affirming and nice to know that the world is smaller in that way, and then other times, you know, not so much um, and then other times, you know, not so much.

Karen McFarlane: 38:23

I mean you're right, I mean so. I mean we're talking about tabitha, we're talking about the pros and cons of social media. You know, there's a definite pro, which is, again, we also talk about access. It gives people access. It gives people a voice in a way that wasn't there before. I think another episode we should talk about is that voice good or like? What was the world like when we didn't have that level of access? Was it better or was it worse? And what are the pros and cons of that? Because the fact that an accountant can just become Reddit famous for, you know, posting about housewives is like crazy, but also amazing in the same vein, right. So what is that Right?

Brittany S. Hale: 39:08

Before she was anonymous, she could just post. But now people don't like the way she looks, or people want to dig more into her life, or, you know, they disagree with her opinion and then they, you know, reach out to her business Like that's the the double-edged sword of it all. That's true.

Karen McFarlane: 39:27

But I'll, I'll. I'll point this part will agree, which I like. All right, I like very much and I will upvote them. They agree. And then the people I disagree with. I don't like, however, and it might take me longer to respond, but I will always respond, I, and it might take me longer to respond, but I will always respond.

Karen McFarlane: 39:59

And I'm practicing risk trying to respect that other point of view, because I post my house life stuff, so I have a very strong opinion about it and I feel like everybody should agree with what I'm saying. So this is actually training me to respond to people of a complete opposite opinion about something, for whatever odd reason I deeply care about and have a fruitful dialogue right when there's an agreement to disagree or I try to find a point of agreement. And even if they're coming for me because they don't know it's me, but they're coming for me, I recognize it's not personal because they don't know who I am Right and I'm intentionally trying to flip it so that they now feel bad for disagreeing with me. No, they will still disagree, but we've gotten to a place where, if we were actually in the same room, we wouldn't be fighting about it.

Karen McFarlane: 40:56

Because sometimes it will start off as a little bit of fight. So that's my personal challenge to myself when I ever see someone that disagrees. So I would just encourage the viewers to kind of take this tactic. It's a very safe way to practice this art of conflict resolution on social in a very weird way. But I like to do everything, you know, I like everything that I do to kind of teach me something, especially if I'm spending hours on it for some ridiculous reason, and so this is one of my methods.

Karen McFarlane: 41:32

So to speak and, like you said, it's easier to do on Reddit, it's harder to do on Instagram or a little bit on threads too. But I want everyone to just stop and think. Leverage our five virtues, so just want to save them for everybody. You know Sophia, which is you know understanding why something matters. P is for nieces, which is use good judgment. E is episteme, which is know the facts.

Brittany S. Hale: 42:06

Know. The facts Come with the receipts people.

Karen McFarlane: 42:10

Yes, and it's for noose, which is trust your intuition and technique, which is make it real. So, at the very least, we want people to use good judgment, we want people to know the facts and we also want people to understand why all of this matters and then leverage context in trying to understand why all this matters and then when you actually comment which is making it real be thoughtful in those responses. What's the last one?

Brittany S. Hale: 42:43

I'm upvoting you for the.

Karen McFarlane: 42:50

Sounds great to me, so we'll leave it there. Then We'll leave it there. So if you commented on Tabitha's post, go back and check your comments and make sure the spent framework applies. That's your action item. Yep, alright, brittany, it's always fun talking to you you too, see ya, bye bye, mina Mina.