Karen McFarlane: 0:33

Hi Brittany.

Brittany S. Hale: 0:37

Give me one second. I have to get our executive producer.

Karen McFarlane: 0:39

Oh, okay, I see a gorgeous picture of her in the background too.

Brittany S. Hale: 0:44

Ah, this was a gift for my birthday. Aw, isn't it great.

Karen McFarlane: 0:49

Aw, that is fantastic, hi, mina Thank you, I am in flesh. You're her emotional support human.

Brittany S. Hale: 1:01

I truly am. I truly am. It is a distinction that I wear with honor. I take that seriously.

Karen McFarlane: 1:09

Well, I'm excited to be here with you today. We are into our third season, right? And, as a reminder to our listeners, we have evolved the E-word, right. So if you haven't caught up on that, make sure you listen to our first episode of season three, which talks about how we have redefined the E-word. Talks about how we have redefined the e-word, yeah, and so with that, we're going to approach, you know, start our new approach to eduomania that's what the e-word stands for and talk about something that has hit the news really recently. So you want me to kick it off, brittany, or you want to kick it off, I mean?

Brittany S. Hale: 1:56

you to kick it off, brittany, or you want to kick it off. I mean, you can kick it off looking at many a meme, all sorts of things, but maps do tell well, um, oh, shoot.

Karen McFarlane: 2:08

Now I just blanked on the man's name. So the CEO of this company called astronomer, which is like a B2B data company, what was his name? Again, I can't remember his name. All of a sudden it's blanked on his name. I want to say it's Brian, but anyway, we'll figure it out. Long story short is right, he's a CEO and he was Andy Byard. Okay, andy Byard. Yes, so he was hanging out with a coworker at a Coldplay concert. A few coworkers, a few coworkers, but in particular they had a special relationship with another coworker where they were let's say hugging Nina, I will demonstrate.

Karen McFarlane: 2:55

Oh yes, For those who are just listening. They were hugged up together at this event.

Brittany S. Hale: 3:08

And unfortunately You're back to prom, your nice little prom.

Karen McFarlane: 3:14

Prom pose. That's true. That's a good example and you know he's married okay, and he's hugged up with this woman, a co-worker, I believe.

Karen McFarlane: 3:26

She works at hr she is their chief people officer okay, um, so the ceo and the chief people officer are hugged up at the concert amongst other co-workers, I guess, and the camera pans to them and they're on the Jumbotron while hugged up, and so they're caught in the act, right, and this created such a stir and it you know of being married. Right, it's also being done in front of other co-workers, right, and now it is showcased in the world and it just offers up a lot of questions around, I don't know, relationships in the workplace, appropriate behavior for particularly senior leaders, and also what that fallout means. When you do get caught, and get caught in such a public way, how does that affect the organizations that you work for and also how they respond?

Brittany S. Hale: 5:02

So that's what we want to talk about today, yeah, and so I guess I'm going to ask a what may seem like a silly question Do you think that he should have resigned? Why or why not?

Karen McFarlane: 5:27

So I think that CEOs are the face of an organization, even if it's a B2B organization that may not normally be in the spotlight, and so they represent the culture and the norms that we expect all employees you know adhere to to some degree. Because his behavior resulted in such a negative spectacle for the organization there definitely needed to be some sort of consequence to that and because it has made the company more of a laughingstock right, with all the memes you mentioned and there are some hilarious ones, right how do people now take the organization seriously if their top leader made the organization a spectacle in a way that's not even aligned with their brand and their mission?

Brittany S. Hale: 6:39

Yes, what are your thoughts on that? I think yeah. So I mean, I think we've made this point about virality right, and I'm sure, as a CMO, as a marketer, we've heard companies say we want to go viral. As a marketer, we've heard companies say we want to go viral, but the challenge in that seems to be one you can't always control what you go viral for, right. And two, once you go viral, what then? Do you have a product to point people to? Do you have some sort of exciting news Like what do you want people to do with the attention that they're giving you? And so this is to your point. Again, this is not what a strong and raw one to go viral for Do. I think that he should have resigned.

Brittany S. Hale: 7:32

So I've worked with senior leaders and many of the leaders that I've worked with. Senior leaders and many of the leaders that I've worked with have been of the mind that how you do anything is how you do everything. And I've actually had some leaders say that if they observe other leaders cheating on their spouse, that that is an indicator to them not to do business with that person, because they say, if you can be disloyal to the person that you're ostensibly sleeping next to every night or you've, you know, you've made this solemn vow to. How can I trust that you will then adhere to the contract that we have, the partnership that we're building, how can I trust you generally if I see that you're not even loyal to your family? And that's something that I've had to think about, because when I saw that, of course it was embarrassing and they made it worse because of their reaction to being on the kiss cam. Right, he's ducking, she's quite literally hiding her face. Turning around, you have another coworker who's kind of awkwardly staring at the kiss cam and laughing.

Brittany S. Hale: 8:52

But when I dug in, so this was a company owned box, right? So, um, I, when I thought about whether or not he should resign, my question was okay, so how much of the business is personal and vice versa? And when you come in, like I've come into organizations and I've done these types of investigations when it comes to any potential harassment, nepotism, you know anything that has to do with these personal relationships impacting the workplace, really tangled, so to see that the chief people officer and the CEO are having a relationship that doesn't seem like they disclose to anyone, certainly not the board, because again, they're the, they are the bosses, right? So who would they report to? They report to the board, but then you know how much of company money is being spent on this box. Are we having company events just to facilitate this relationship? You know so, both of their spouses, because she's married as well, so that both of their spouses can then say, oh okay, you're just going to a work thing, you know, and not cause suspicion.

Brittany S. Hale: 10:14

So I do think resigning is the right choice. I mean, he's already been, he's already in another role, so it doesn't seem like it's impacted him too much. And I believe, I think, as of a few days ago, the CP of the chief people officer, she's also resigned, which ultimately, I think is for the best because huge, huge loss. But I think they should, I think they should have resigned. I mean it's, it's awkward, it's been. If it hasn't already, it should lead to a number of investigations into how things are being run at astronomer and what matters to the strong I mean you're right and you know, as I was thinking about this, I was thinking about this in um a couple different ways, right.

Karen McFarlane: 11:11

so one is about people's personal relationships and while some people may feel certain things are inappropriate, we don't have the full story. We don't know if, you know, they have open marriages. We don't know if their spouses are okay with it or not okay with it. They might not be okay with it when it becomes public like this, but there's a lot of things that we don't know about. What happens with people personally, but to your point, it gets really tangled when it's coworkers. And it's really tangled when you have the top dog, a cheap people officer, when you have the top dog, a chief people officer, that's entangled in these situations, because if something does go awry, that's the person that's supposed to. You know, the go-to person that's supposed to make sure that you know these policies or things are appropriate in the workplace right, and when that person is being inappropriate, coupled with the CEO, that just is not a good look. And so I agree with everything that you said.

Karen McFarlane: 12:22

I think sometimes I just get caught up in the personal aspect of it. Just because we don't like what you do does not mean you can't do your work. Those things happen all the time, right, and I think it's because of the roles that this becomes even more complex. But when we also say you can bring your whole self to work which I don't really like that phrase right? What does that really mean? What are we really saying? Or are we saying, you know, just bring parts of yourself, just bring the worker, the worker bee parts of yourself like that phrase right?

Karen McFarlane: 12:57

What does that really mean? What are we really saying? Or are we saying, you know, just bring parts of yourself, just bring the worker, the worker, bee parts of yourself and leave the emotional aspects at the door? And then what are we saying? I just think there's just layers to this. I'm not defending this at all, because it probably would have kept going on had they not gotten caught on the jumbotron. And, like you said, there's probably layers. How are they leveraging company time to facilitate this relationship in an inappropriate way?

Brittany S. Hale: 13:23

So all of that has to happen.

Karen McFarlane: 13:25

But we also know that people do fall for each other at work all the time. When you spend eight to 10 hours a day at work, that's your pool of people for the most part at work, that's your pool of people for the most part, and so the deeper relationships form. And how do you prevent that when humans are emotional beings? So I think it just gets really complex in many different ways and we have to learn how to temper that and manage those relationships appropriately. That will inevitably happen.

Brittany S. Hale: 14:03

It just gets worse the higher up you go. Are you saying that the work wife, the work husband, the work spouse should then become the real spouse?

Karen McFarlane: 14:11

Listen, if you're already married, you're supposed to stay with your person. Or if you're in a committed relationship, you're supposed to stay with your person and not venture out At least that's my belief system unless you have an arrangement. People have unique relationships. The work wife and the work husband is a unique relationship because, again, you're spending all this time with people and you get along with them. You're friends. That phrase has come out of something. When does it cross the line? How does it cross the line? I don't know, if you take away the romantic part of any relationship in the workplace. Relationship in the workplace, right. You just like hanging out with so-and-so and there's perks available at your company, no-transcript. So if there's a box seat, right, hey. Uh, kyle, right, choosing that name because I watched untamed last night on netflix with eric banna, which, by the way, is a very good show.

Brittany S. Hale: 15:25

so hey kyle, we are not being sponsored by net Netflix.

Karen McFarlane: 15:30

That show is really good, you know, the company's got a box at the Reds game, whatever, right, let's, let's go to that. And Kyle is like cool, because I want to hang out with me. Right, are we facilitating that relationship? It's just not romantic. But when it becomes romantic, then all of a sudden there might be a problem.

Brittany S. Hale: 15:54

Yeah, so this is interesting because then it comes back to likability, which is so subjective and most people do not have rigid enough boundaries that they can separate the personal and the professional, enough boundaries that they can separate the personal and the professional. So it is a boom if you like someone and you work with them and you get along really really well. That's the ideal. Yeah, there are also some people that you can work really well with together, but they may not be your favorite person, exactly. And there are other people who are that you can work really well with together, but they may not be your favorite person.

Karen McFarlane: 16:35

Exactly.

Brittany S. Hale: 16:37

And there are other people who are your favorite people, but you also know that the way that your two work styles don't align.

Karen McFarlane: 16:45

Yep.

Brittany S. Hale: 16:47

We often conflate the two. So if you say I like Kyle, kyle and I both watch Untamed we had an amazing time talking about the show. I want Kyle on my team because I like our banter that is not going to necessarily guarantee success. That does not take into account Kyle's capabilities, kyle's skills. That does not take into account Kyle's capabilities, kyle's skills, kyle's work style, kyle's dependability. We like Kyle, right, right. This also reminds me of two things. First, I was having a conversation with a friend. We were talking about bridesmaids and she said you do not choose your bridesmaids based on who you're closest with. You choose your bridesmaids based on who's more likely to get work done. And it's very similar here, right? So I've been part of weddings and you know it's a stress test for the friendship. Sometimes people come out closer, sometimes people you know those friendships fracture and they never really repair because people didn't work well together. People were unreliable. You know all of these types of things. And then last week I was actually working with a group of attorneys and one of the attorneys.

Brittany S. Hale: 18:22

We were talking about developing a performance framework and how these attorneys can go forward and fairly assess how people are performing on their team fairly assess how people are performing on their team, because there has to be some sort of objective standard that you can use to apply to kind of the key behaviors that you're looking for for a team. And so we're going through some of these behaviors within the framework. And an attorney said but you know, I still need to know more about a person in order to be able to work with them. I want to know more about them. And he said, okay, so what does that mean? He said, oh well, I need to know.

Brittany S. Hale: 19:08

You know, if they have kids, because you know they're going through a rough time or their children are sick, then you know, maybe I can give them a little bit more grace. And then I said, okay, but then if they don't have children, then that leads to well, why don't you have children? Which could lead it to sticky territory because if it's a medical issue, right, you're soliciting them to share private information or you're making a value judgment If they say, oh, my gosh, I don't want to have kids, you know. Or if they say you know, oh, I have a dog, or my dog has special needs, or my dog has special needs, and so the grace that you might have afforded a parent of a sick child, should you afford that to the parent of a special needs pet? So then you're adding in all of these factors, right? That complicate the relationship. Additionally, some people value privacy, right? I don't necessarily owe my co-workers a deep dive into my life outside of work. Some people agree with that, some people disagree with that.

Karen McFarlane: 20:30

I agree with them. You don't owe it, but I think for some people it's natural to deliver that. You know to offer that up, because it's about building that connection beyond the work and oftentimes when you have a deeper connection while doing the work, you can become more productive. So I totally agree that you shouldn't choose Kyle just because you like him, because you can like a lot of people. You should choose Kyle because you can work effectively with him and the bonus is that you like Kyle right, because that could create a deeper, better, more productive working relationship when you're not annoyed with the person that you have to work with and then when you develop that deeper relationship and you get to know people more personally, that allows you more room to support in many different ways.

Karen McFarlane: 21:38

I think it has to do more with the mindset and how you're going to use that information. So if that person who wants to know more is looking beyond the black and white concepts right and deeper into the person's spirit and what drives and motivates them, I think that's a positive. Again, it gets a little tricky in how that is applied and that's why relationships in general are so complex, because it's not even just about the individual person. It's about the individual person and how they interact with all the other different people individually and within groups, and those dynamics can shift and change and you need a high level of emotional intelligence in order to manage all of that complexity.

Brittany S. Hale: 22:57

I think you brought up a very critical part, which is you need a high level of emotional intelligence there, and we're still working on that. When it comes to accurately assessing leadership potential.

Karen McFarlane: 23:05

Absolutely, and I think I have a high level of emotional intelligence, but I always kick in Right A hundred percent and I ask myself questions of emotional intelligence, right, but it can always kick in right 100% of the time and I ask myself questions around how I'm perceiving or how I'm reacting to something. So I have particular triggers for myself. Disrespect is a huge trigger for me. I have a hard time moving past that and I take that very personally, right, and so that's something I have to be aware of because it may skew my reaction. Um, I also like to reflect on the individual person and their particular style of work and of communication, because that may differ from my style, it may differ from the next person, but if I look at things with just a singular lens, I'm going to miss some very important cues that are going to enable this person to not only be productive but also feel good about their productivity, because I think there's the work and that's how you feel about the work, and so we all have to take a step back and understand the lens through which we are viewing the world and, again, those triggers and also the things that motivate me but also do that individually for people, and then reflect on am I reacting to this particular situation based on my perception?

Karen McFarlane: 24:50

Do I need to add in some other layers, like background is important to some degree. The question of home is important. Did this person not get it done? Because there are things going on in their life right now and I should be sensitive to that and help them solve for it, which requires a personal point of view right To understand that. Otherwise, I'm going to think that they're just not doing the work, when there's maybe a very good reason they can't do it. They don't understand it, they need some more guidance, they need a buddy, they like to work on their own. Whatever the different things are Okay, so you have to be willing to do that work individually to get that person to the next point of success.

Brittany S. Hale: 25:41

Absolutely, and I think there are different levels of accountability based on whether or not you're an individual contributor, yes, whether you're a team leader, whether you're a team leader, whether you are, you know, if you are in a silo and I think this is also going back to the challenges versus the benefits of remote work is asking how we can foster collaboration, asking how we can foster collaboration, trust and connection within a virtual box. We know it's possible, right, our friendship started via Zoom, right, but there's also something to be said for being able to connect with someone in person. Yes, experience them and all of the intangibles, right, the the intuitive markers that we get anytime we encounter another human being. But, um, I think this again is an invitation to assess what's important to you.

Brittany S. Hale: 27:01

If affiliation is important to you, if you need to be part of a team, what is it about that team that you enjoy? Do you enjoy being the person everyone can rely on? Are you motivating people? Are you, you know? Do you like a sense of power and control? And all of those things factor into these relationships. If I had to look at this CEO and CPO, I would definitely say well, first, my question would be did they know each other before she assumed the role, because I believe, at least from what's publicly available, it looks like she assumed the role in November, so she hasn't even been there a year, right? So this is either a whirlwind Love at first sight.

Brittany S. Hale: 27:52

Love at first sight Right, it's a whirlwind romance or it is something that is. Maybe there was a prior connection, right, right that they were able to build on in this space able to build on in this space. And I wanted to also give some space to Andy Byron's soon-to-be ex-wife. Have you seen her statement?

Karen McFarlane: 28:32

No, I did not see her statement. What is it?

Brittany S. Hale: 28:36

Okay, so I'm going to read this out to you, partly because she released a statement on my birthday. It was the gift that kept on giving. But I'm going to go paragraph by paragraph and I would love your in real time reaction. So says wife of Andrew Byron dash, for now, love it. It has come to my attention, and apparently to the attention of half the internet, that my husband, andrew Byron, has made certain dot dot dot choices, public ones, under stadium lights, during a Coldplay concert and venue, not typically associated with infidelity. But here we are.

Karen McFarlane: 29:27

Okay, next, what's her name again? What's her name again? Megan, megan.

Brittany S. Hale: 29:37

Okay, megan Megan. Next, what's her name again? What's her name again? Megan megan. Okay, megan. So, um, I should also note that she'd removed her husband's surname from her facebook profile before she deleted her facebook profile in the days following the concert, so this is attributed to her. We don't know for sure, but assuming it is, we're going to continue. Let me be perfectly clear. I am not issuing this statement in defense, nor in heartbreak. I am issuing it in power, in precision, in silk gloves and sharpened wit.

Karen McFarlane: 30:16

Oh, oh, megan. Okay, I don't know you, but I like you already.

Brittany S. Hale: 30:25

For sure.

Karen McFarlane: 30:28

Put on my boxing gloves, because I'm getting ready to go.

Brittany S. Hale: 30:31

Exactly because I'm getting ready to go, I will not be engaging in performative forgiveness, nor am I interested in the optics of grace racism. What Andy has done is not just humiliating, it is banal common. A man of ambition brought down by his own astonishing lack of imagination.

Karen McFarlane: 30:58

That's a diss to the what's her name again.

Brittany S. Hale: 31:02

To the astronomer CPO yes.

Karen McFarlane: 31:05

Call her CPO. That's a straight diss to the CPO. Kristen Cabot, kristen Okay, let me write down. Kristen Megan and Andy Gotcha Okay, let me write down.

Brittany S. Hale: 31:15

Kristen Megan and Andy Gotcha. Okay, I have retained counsel, I have reviewed holdings, I have reallocated what was once ours into what is now very cleanly mine Strike. I am not spiraling, I am ascending. And while Andy may have quoted Coldplay in his statement, I will simply say when the lights went out, I saw everything clearly. To those who expect tears, I don't cry for clowns. I schedule, I document, I rebuild. Don't cry for clowns. This is not revenge, it is refinement, and he will feel it in the silence that follows.

Karen McFarlane: 32:06

I wonder if Megan's a cancer, feels very cancer-y Okay.

Brittany S. Hale: 32:13

It feels very cancer-y. Okay, it feels very much aligned with our astrological signs. If you're in the proverbial shell, cancers, their sign is the crab. If you're in the shell fiercely defending, she could be a scorpio too.

Karen McFarlane: 32:36

Yeah, because it feels very like you know. Yeah, she could be. Or taurus yeah, we need to look up her birth to confirm, yeah you need to do this please let us, if you see this, please let us know. I respect this statement, right, she's simply moving on. It sounds as if, obviously, we don't know her, but it sounds as if she's not shocked by this behavior. This just may be the last straw, or she doesn't allow for any straws Once in a while you're out, there's no straws.

Brittany S. Hale: 33:16

No straws available.

Karen McFarlane: 33:17

So either no straws or this is the last straw, but whatever it is, we're out of straws at this point in time and she knows what her options are and she's moving forward. I would like to build a narrative around this that is completely just. My own in this story is that she was waiting for this moment to happen. She knew it would inevitably happen and she's already got her ducks in a row and she's about to just collect her checks and she was like, oh you're busted, I get my moment. Do, do, do, do, do, activate, activate. Um, I would like that in her story.

Brittany S. Hale: 33:57

I don't know if it is, but what was it maya andrew who said when people show you who they are? Yes, so I just believe that at some point in time she became aware of its behaviors, because I am persuaded by the idea of how you do anything is how you do everything. So if this is someone who very clearly needed to be in the limelight, figuratively and literally, then Possibly, who knows, we'll never really know.

Brittany S. Hale: 34:38

You know we will not, but this is. This is not uncommon, Right? You see very public co-workers come together, right? Good Morning America correspondents. Right, they were both married, had a longstanding affair, came together and now, ironically, their exes are in a relationship.

Karen McFarlane: 35:07

I think that's what makes this so complex. Right, it's generally accepted, it's just how you do it. And who knows what was happening before this Coldplay concert, if they were just having an affair, or if they fell in love or going to get married, if they had plans to do this in an appropriate way? We, we may never know the truth around that. It's just that you know they happen to get caught right, and Megan may intentionally get caught in this way. I think there's many different ways they could do it, but maybe who knows, you know, we don't know. But also with Megan, you know she could have had everything on speed dial. But I also think that when something like this happens so publicly and shames you, it activates a different part of your brain, right, like, who knows, maybe she would have been able to forgive, forgiven it, I don't know, but when this happens in this way.

Karen McFarlane: 36:13

But I think the the, the question for everybody which speaks to the everything statement is what are your values? What are your personal values? How do those personal values match to the company values? And I know for me, if I was privy to that behavior, it would upset me, it would change how I thought about the people, particularly in those roles and the organizations, and that also says to me that you condone this type of behavior, which means you condone it throughout the organization. And this is probably not a place for me, because we know cultures differ everywhere. I'm not going to fit into certain cultures and that's fine. And so this is indicative in this public display because you're at a concert, in a company box with coworkers of how you feel about relationships.

Brittany S. Hale: 37:24

Truly, and I mean Kristen, especially as a people operations professional Right. So a little bit of background on her. She is married to Andrew Cabot. Do you know who Andrew Cabot is, andrew Cabot? Andrew Cabot is CEO of Privateer Room. So he was actually on an overseas trip in Japan, oh, when everything broke out. Oh, and so he was in Asia, they said, for a few weeks. He returned on that Saturday, so he was gone while everything went down.

Brittany S. Hale: 38:02

And so Kristen and Andrew got married in 2022, after her previous divorce was finalized, and you know, of course, that sent me wondering okay, was she at another concert with Andrew? I've been there, and so a few months ago, they purchased a $2.2 million mansion in Rye, new Hampshire, and a source says that his family is now saying that they've been having marriage trouble for several months and that they were discussing separating. And the source says they think it's interesting because, as of a month ago, they were saying how in love they are. So this could be Andrew Stanley hoping to save face. But Andrew is the descendant of the Cabot family and they're part of America's elite class, also known as the Boston Brahmins, and you know it's essentially a descriptor for Boston's elite families in New England.

Karen McFarlane: 39:06

So she married very, very well when she married Andrew and so you know, as you talked about this, this um, andrew, and so you know, as you talked about this, this um, there's another layer to this, you know. So, andy, he's in his new role, he'll be fine. Yes, men, cheating generally is accepted. Women doing it. It's a different. Almost expected, almost expected, right. Women doing it. It's a different thing. Almost expected, almost expected, right. Women doing it has a different connotation and different consequences to it.

Karen McFarlane: 39:41

So, again, given her role as a chief people officer question will she be able to get a role like that again? No-transcript layers to that, but because she's an adulterer on face value right now, that creates some complexity for her should her husband want to get a divorce. And so I really hope for her sake, although I don't know her right, because I don't know her, I don't hate any of these people, right, like whatever. I hope that Andy and her were actually in love and Andy takes care of, helps her, like get back on her feet and takes care of her, because I really do feel like it's going to be a challenge for her to get that particular role again.

Karen McFarlane: 40:35

Particular role again she's going to have to do a career pivot, whereas Andy is already settled. So the risks are higher for different people. Maybe it wouldn't be so great if it wasn't that particular role. I don't know, but it's already a challenge. Or maybe she'll be okay, maybe she'll have a nice settlement and divorce and keep it moving. But as people think about you know not only their values, they have to. And I'm wondering and for the listeners, the ex-wife- of the Colby thing.

Brittany S. Hale: 41:22

Right, right, exactly which I had forgotten, right.

Karen McFarlane: 41:28

I had forgotten that for a second, because I'm like, why, gwyneth? I'm curious what you thought about the video which, for listeners who haven't seen it Astronomer hired Gwyneth Paltrow the actress Gwyneth Paltrow to be their temporary spokesperson in light of this whole controversy, and she did like a quick I think it's like a minute video sort of on it, sort of I'm wondering what your thoughts were about it.

Brittany S. Hale: 42:02

So I I thought it was really, I thought it was a stroke of genius, especially for people who are chronically online, to be able to take the attention right, because before this I know I wasn't speaking about astronomer, I don't think you were speaking about astronomer and so to be able to capitalize on this to also kind of bring pop culture along right, because we all know, when it comes to chris and gwyneth, we've had this. They had a very famous relationship, their children are famous, and so for her to weigh in on this and you have this kind of breaking the fourth wall moment. But they were able to redirect the attention because Andy has kind of fallen to the wayside. Kristen, I'm so glad you brought up the difference in how women who are involved in public affairs have been treated and continue to be treated, at least in the United States.

Brittany S. Hale: 43:14

All of that blowback, but now astronomers. Astronomers have been able to say, ok, this is an opportunity, right? No bad press. So while you're talking about a strong American, let's get someone that we all know an A-list celebrity. Immediately I'm thinking, oh, how much do they have to pay her to do?

Karen McFarlane: 43:35

that.

Brittany S. Hale: 43:37

I've seen their budget for this but they're able to have her explain who the company is, what they're used for, what their unique value prop is, and I think that was really cool. I don't know that it is going to move the needle in terms of acquiring a new business, and so that's where my concern lies, but from a I would guess say maybe a PR perspective, I think it was stroke of genius. Ultimately, when it comes time to at the end of the fiscal year, to have that discussion Right. What do you?

Karen McFarlane: 44:18

think, yeah, you know, first of all, you know I think this is why marketing corporate communications is so important. Sometimes organizations don't put enough emphasis or budget towards it, and so this is an example, you know, even especially in B, even in B2B companies, right Um, why those roles are clearly necessary. So I agree with you. I feel like it was really clever as a way to attempt to change the narrative and lean into some of the social media you know, savviness that B2B companies don't really often get to play into, and so I thought that was quite clever and I don't think there's anything wrong with it, Like I think it was a positive, interesting spin, kind of meet the moment where you're at. You know, I saw some comments online and like why wouldn't they have you know, like, say, their board chair or somebody come in? I don't think that it would have had the same social media play had it been you know someone within the company, although for, from a different perspective, for future buyers, I think that is more important Having you know someone from within the company make some sort of statement, or you know. However, they wanted to spin that because I don't know that I don't believe that anyone's going to buy their services because Gwyneth Paltrow said so right.

Karen McFarlane: 46:09

So there's still a lot of work to do to regain that type of trust, Because even for people who are looking for those types of services, if you Google that that will always come up. It will always be some level of scandal. So how you handle that afterwards is really critical, and that's why I think that he had to resign, because it couldn't be a company that allowed that type of behavior and could build trust with future companies, because that was broken with the public. But they still have to continue building it, and I think the first step was definitely the resignation. The second step was definitely how do we change the narrative? And the third step is going to be much more quieter in terms of it's going to be within to their audience base, to their prime audience base. They can't spend too much time on social media with this stuff and zhuzh it up even more. It's not going to be good for their marketing. It was clever, it was cute, it played into the moment. It probably cost him a lot of money and hopefully it works.

Brittany S. Hale: 47:18

Yeah hopefully, because, with his resignation, wondering if there's some sort of agreement and they agreed on to say, hey, you know, we'll give you a golden parachute. Goodbye. You have to exit two ceos. You have to hire an executive search firm.

Karen McFarlane: 47:41

I know that the coo is stepping up as an interim but there's going to be an executive search now for two roles and that's expensive yeah, yeah, and all the conversations they're going to have to have internally, like you said, the investigations, you know, um, maybe updating of their values and policies and and procedures. It it actually has caused a lot more work and distraction, uh, but it has to be done because you got to shore up your foundation and make sure people are still aligned with the mission and vision of the organization. So they'll get past it right, Because they got rid of the problem. You know so it totally will. But you know so it totally will. But you know organizations have to be careful about how they deal with these types of situations, but also practical, about what happens in the workplace. Now, this might be a case for remote work.

Brittany S. Hale: 48:55

Yes, yes, I think that's as good a case as any. Right If we're not in group sessions, you know there's no stroll around the office office. You know, make sure that our, our engagements are purposeful and on target.

Karen McFarlane: 49:25

Yes, exactly so we'll see what happens going forward. If they're still in the news, I think they don't want to be not in that way, but we'll see.

Brittany S. Hale: 49:29

No, no, no, We'll keep an eye on it. We'll keep an eye on it, but no, no, no, we'll keep an eye on it.

Karen McFarlane: 49:43

We'll keep an eye on it, but very interesting.

Brittany S. Hale: 49:46

It's a very interesting situation Moral of the story is don't get caught. If you're going to do dirt, don't get caught. Continue to lurk in the dark if that's what you were going to do.

Karen McFarlane: 49:58

There's a kid here somewhere. I'm going to be a little gendered and be like. That's the moral of the story for men and women. Don't do it, Okay, Because the consequences are completely different.

Brittany S. Hale: 50:17

The consequences are completely different. I have not seen anywhere. Ask Monica Lewinsky, ask any of these women who were in very, very public situations and paid the cost To this day. Monica Lewinsky, I mean, I'm sure she's done great work. We don't know about that.

Karen McFarlane: 50:43

We only know her for one thing, which is really At this point it's been decades of ridicule and laughter.

Karen McFarlane: 50:50

Yeah, the consequences are vastly different. So we have to be careful and you know, I would just say that everyone needs to think about that. You could be caught up in a situation and both parties in the relationship need to really think about how this affects one another and be willing to pay the cost if should that happen. So good luck to megan and andy, yes, and kristin. Everybody it's good luck, um, you know, I don't want to vilify them in a way because again, that was that's their business, um, but we'll see what happens, or maybe we won't.

Brittany S. Hale: 51:37

We're still thinking that your true love has not already happened.

Karen McFarlane: 51:42

Exactly, exactly. Hey, mina, how do we do?

Brittany S. Hale: 51:50

She's pretty good. I think she did a good job.

Karen McFarlane: 51:54

I'm proud of us All right. Well, we got to get feedback, and we love feedback from the listeners too on our new approach, so give it to us, let us know what you think. All right, brittany, until next time. Bye.