Brittany S. Hale: 0:32

Hey Brittany Karen, how are you?

Karen McFarlane: 0:35

I'm hanging in there. You know how, about you?

Brittany S. Hale: 0:38

Okay, okay, I like it. I too am hanging in there. You know I've been taking some free classes at Harvard, Nice, yeah, yeah, it's been pretty cool. I mean Harvard's been in the news and I mean, of course, you know Harvard's well known, it's one of the oldest IVs in the United States. But you know, I started taking classes after seeing that Harvard got a restraining order, Did you?

Karen McFarlane: 1:12

see this, I totally saw that. But even in regards to the classes it felt like the ultimate clapback. All right, Totally. Administrates this. It was like here's some free courses on, you know, the Constitution for everybody to take advantage of. I was like that is so incredibly smart. Biggest troll, absolutely biggest troll absolutely.

Brittany S. Hale: 1:33

you know, when I, when I was in undergrad, um, I had this fantastic professor who I don't think is still living, jonathan lorry, and he taught like an intro to law course. He's one of the reasons why I ended up in law school, and one of the things that he required of everyone especially if you were in the pre-law society, as I was was to carry around a pocket constitution, and it is something that I've continued to do even today. You can carry it around on your phone, of course. They have apps where you can download the constitution, and that is because, yeah, yeah, here we go yep, yep, um.

Brittany S. Hale: 2:29

You never know when you need it, and it's always good to have on hand so that you never have to rely on someone else telling you what it says. You can just look for yourself.

Karen McFarlane: 2:43

Yeah, that's true. That's true, yeah, but it feels like it's under assault these days in so many different ways. Right, and yeah, harvard is at the center of you know some aspects of it. Harvard is at the center of some aspects of it.

Brittany S. Hale: 2:57

Yeah, I mean, I'm also a huge fan of and this is just hearkening back to my childhood Schoolhouse Rock. I'm just a Bill to focus on and to remember what it means to be a US citizen, what the Constitution means, what the protections are for people who are not US citizens or not yet US citizens. So for those who may be listening and have a scant idea of what we're talking about, a federal judge issued a TRO, or a temporary restraining order, which blocked the current administration from being able to revoke Harvard University's ability to enroll international students. Now the current administration says that these international students are from countries that are not friendly to the United States and they alleged they pay nothing toward their students' education. And Harvard, which again is a private university, it's not a public university. Harvard, which again is a private university, it's not a public university. They argued that the administration's revocation, their ability to revoke the ability to enroll international students, is a blatant violation of the First Amendment.

Brittany S. Hale: 4:38

If you're a little bit rusty on what the First Amendment is, that your ability to, uh, have protected free speech. I don't know if you wanted to read a little bit of the the first amendment out, and and I always want to be, yeah, clear that, um, all speech is not protected. I always want to be very, very clear. There's a difference between what protected speech is and unprotected speech. So unprotected speech are things like hate speech or incitement. The famous example is you can't yell fire in a crowded movie theater where there is no fire present. That is not protected free speech. However, I found it, if you want me to read it, that is not protected free speech, however.

Karen McFarlane: 5:18

I found it. If you want me to read it, oh, please do. Okay, congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Brittany S. Hale: 5:44

To petition the government for a redress of grievances. That's a that's a huge one, Right? So you know, I think we're in a time where a lot of people feel strongly about a lot of different things, and I guess the founding fathers did not want to create a space that may have been counter to the monarch or any sort of monarchical legislation or anything coming out of that. And so, again, this is the first amendment to the Constitution, right, Because it wanted to be very, very clear about the type of country they intended to create. And so Harvard is saying that the government is by trying to control who Harvard admits they're trying to control Harvard's governance, their curriculum and their ideology of its faculty and students, and they're very, very concerned about what could be considered to be broad overreach.

Karen McFarlane: 7:04

So I guess the big question is why? Why do you want to control the governance and curriculum of universities, right? What is the end game in in doing right and um? What that says to me is, if you want to control I'm going to specifically talk about the curriculum that means you want to control what people learn. Right, and I guess, especially in dictatorships, it is best for people to not truly understand their rights, to be uneducated to a certain degree in order to be, you know, manipulated or guided in a certain direction. And when you attack, you know, one of the most prestigious universities that churn out really intelligent or perceived to be intelligent, a lot of, a lot of schools churn out really intelligent people, but Harvard is a symbol of that level of intellect, right? When you do that, what are you saying, right?

Brittany S. Hale: 8:19

Yeah.

Karen McFarlane: 8:20

Yeah, and on top of the control of what people are learning, this, this attempt to unenroll foreign students. What is that saying? Do we not want that global perspective? Do we not want to teach foreign students on the highest level? I'm trying to figure out what the end game is, and the only thing that I can come up with is to facilitate a dictatorship.

Brittany S. Hale: 9:00

You know. So I thought about it, I tried to engage in the same exercise as you and I said okay, I can see if someone were a nationalist, which many in this administration seem to be America first. Right, we want Harvard to admit more US citizens into their student body. Let's say that's what they were doing. I then have to wrestle with the fact that in April in April, they froze about $2.2 billion in grants and contracts to Harvard because Harvard didn't agree to the policies that they demanded when it came to hiring and admissions. And I have to assume that some of those policies because the administration has been staunchly anti-DEI that some of those policies would have mandated that Harvard no longer hire or consider people of varying backgrounds, even if they are US citizens, because we're not a homogenous nation.

Karen McFarlane: 10:38

Is reading between the lines. Is it trying to compel Harvard to maybe roll back to the olden days, Right, when universities only admitted white males Right and only admitted white males right. And again, through that controlled educational and controlled curriculum right, Educate this particular group right In a particular way of thinking? That is America first. And look, America first. In its name, Right Is not terrible. I just didn't realize. It meant America only. Hmm.

Karen McFarlane: 11:27

And that is very counterintuitive to me, because America has always been this melting pot.

Karen McFarlane: 11:35

It is a nation, a country of immigrants, right, native Americans are the only natives to this land, right, and so it just, uh, it just feels wrong, right, when we say, hey, you know, we're a country of immigrants, but now we're no longer, that we don't welcome anybody else in this country or we have to limit who comes in this country based on a set amount of criteria.

Karen McFarlane: 12:11

Also, this propaganda that is basically saying that, you know, the white race is being discriminated against, right, because of racist policies that have now. So, this reverse racism mentality, you know, and let me just say, in some ways I understand, right, um, I somehow understand, but it ignores a lot of history, practically all history, about why we're here in the first place and who created these racist ideologies, right, right, and so I understand that you know, this particular group could feel some sort of backlash, particularly in the past few years, that they're not being represented, um, or treated fairly, despite the fact that for hundreds and hundreds of years, they were raised up and treated as the top dog when other groups were underrepresented. And it's really about this mentality that only one group can have part of the pie right, and that's where the flaws lie in all of this. But regardless of how either group feels right, doing to one group what someone did to the other is not right.

Brittany S. Hale: 13:41

Yeah, and I want to be very clear that people who are identified as white according to a census or whatever are not the only people who are Americans. That's just inaccurate. I know people who look like us, whose families have been here since the 1800s. I know people who are Italian Americans or who are identified as white and who said oh, my great great great grandfather came here in 1913. And thus began our journey and thus began our Americanness. So if we are and thus began our Americanness, so if we are truly saying America first to your point, right, the only people who can truly say, hey, I've been here since the beginning are Indigenous Americans. But when does that start? How does that start? When does that start? How does that start? What does it mean to be American and what value does that hold when it comes to gaining an education?

Brittany S. Hale: 15:07

Not the only country that's wrestled with this. There have been other countries that have seen an increase in immigrants and really had to ask what that meant. France is a country that comes to mind because I would say in the past 15 years or so, they saw a huge uptick in immigrants into France and there seemed to be a lot of anti-Muslim sentiment from French citizens and their response, and I've spoken about this with friends who who live in France, who said oh well, yes, there are some people who are you know who are are being prejudiced, and there's this very clear sense of, uh, nationalist pride. Right, we want you to be French, so if you are here, you speak French, you engage in the same customs and you prioritize being French over every other identity that you have.

Brittany S. Hale: 16:29

Now, if we look back at the United States, we don't have an official language right so we can't say speak American. People do say it, but it's not accurate. But what is it? But again my question what does it mean to be American? What value are you bringing to class being an American? Because there's so many different narratives of what it means to be an American, and I think that's what makes it great.

Karen McFarlane: 17:02

That's exactly the point is there is no one definition of America. America is a hodgepodge of different cultures. It is a place that you're supposed to be able to come and bring your for lack of a better term authentic self and live that in America and add to the melting pot Like it's a, it's a big recipe that keeps, you know, just growing and you keep adding different flavors to it, right, and it just makes it taste and feel better, right, america is seasoned, okay, essentially, and you know that's one of the things that everyone loves about it. You know, if you just look at New York City as just an example of different neighborhoods where you can go and have these different cultural experiences and feel like you have traveled to different countries through the, the food and the music and and interactions that go beyond that, that, that surface level stuff, um, you really get to appreciate that there is not just one way of being.

Karen McFarlane: 18:12

And then there's also, like, the interconnectedness as you have, cultures mix and mingle, you know, either through friendships or marriage or whatever the case may be, you create this new fabric of identity, right, and it connects us in so many different ways and I think that there's a beauty in that that connects us as human beings that have different experiences that we can share with one another, rather than being a place that is known for having one specific experience that everyone must have, specific experience that everyone must have. And maybe there are places out there that that's exactly what it needs to be, but that, to me, is not America. That's not how it was born, that's not how it was grown, and for it to now turn into something homogenous feels just counterintuitive to how it grew up in the first place.

Brittany S. Hale: 19:17

I love that point. I've seen different descriptions, right. So we all say the melting pot. But I've also seen people say, okay, it's not as much a melting pot, it's more like a mixed salad. Right, got some tomatoes you got lettuce.

Brittany S. Hale: 19:37

You got all of these things coming together. They still remain the same right. Just because you mix the tomatoes and the carrots and the lettuce together doesn't mean that they cease being tomatoes and carrots and lettuce right. Rather, they come together. But as you were speaking, I was just thinking, you know, and maybe I'm just hungry, but I was like I think America's kind of like a seven layer dip.

Karen McFarlane: 20:00

Oh, okay.

Brittany S. Hale: 20:02

Because, again, each layer is its own distinct self and unfortunately we do have hierarchies or societal hierarchies here. But the point is, when you scoop it all out, everything, all the flavors together, go really well. You wouldn't just want a a dip that was just sour cream, right? You wouldn't just want a dip that was just sour cream, right? You wouldn't just want a dip that was just, you know, avocado. It's just nothing else, right, just completely mashed avocado. It's the melding and the mixing and all of the flavors that go well and makes us stronger, yeah, you know yeah. Stronger you know, yeah. Like my challenge today, I think, to our listeners would be I would like for listeners to go a day only using the products. If we're saying America first and if we're saying that the only people who have good ideas are white men who identify as American. Right, go a whole day and only use technologies, systems, inventions that have only been created by white men.

Karen McFarlane: 21:37

Wait, you don't think that might be kind of easy? I don't know what it was, but in my head I'm like well. I'm looking around right now like my computer my headphones.

Brittany S. Hale: 21:53

Maybe that might be kind of Indoor plumbing you couldn't do. But okay, let's go with your computer and your headphones. Are your headphones wireless? Yes, Bluetooth.

Karen McFarlane: 22:04

Oh yes, that's right Okay.

Brittany S. Hale: 22:06

That's right. Not happening. Gps Not happening. You're not leaving the house. That's right. Not happening. Gps Not happening. You're not leaving the house. That's true. You couldn't even drive because you would have to deal with stoplights, which were invented Mm-hmm, okay, yeah. Indoor plumbing yeah.

Karen McFarlane: 22:25

You might need to draw people a roadmap.

Brittany S. Hale: 22:28

Yeah, you're not doing laundry. Okay Washers and dryers.

Karen McFarlane: 22:38

True, all right.

Brittany S. Hale: 22:39

All right, challenge accepted, challenge accepted, let's see what kind of day you have. And so, again, you know, I think it's really really important for us to question whether or not that makes sense, to think okay if I only went by this.

Karen McFarlane: 23:02

Yeah, I think people may argue though, because there's always a counter right that, yeah, going forward, we can absolutely do that. Right, and it's also scary that that is the goal. Right, because the goal it seems to be, as we've looked at over the past couple of years, to, you know, cut off or limit funding to underrepresented groups, right, and things of that nature. There is a nap with the anti-DEI sentiment, right, they claim it's not merit-based, but there's a specific movement with an undertone to make sure that certain groups don't reach positions of power and influence. So there seems to be this overarching desire again to uplift, once again, certain groups to the detriment of other groups. Once again, right, certain groups to the detriment of other groups. And so does it make the question is does America first mean America only, and does America only mean only certain groups?

Brittany S. Hale: 24:25

Yeah, I mean, yes, america only means only certain groups, and that's unfortunate because there are so many other groups that are patriotic, invested in this country, want to see this country succeed, want to see this country thrive, want to be part of, and critical to that success. Yeah, and have been and have been.

Karen McFarlane: 25:00

So I just did really quick.

Brittany S. Hale: 25:01

Google. Everyday technology invented by women Dishwasher, windshield wipers, home security system, electric refrigerator, wi-fi and GPS, hedy Lamarr, of course, caller ID and call waiting. Affordable facts, the touchtone telephone, solar cells, fiber optic cables. So no Wi-Fi net, no dial up. All right, so there's that. And then, of course, if I go for black americans, automatic elevator doors, folding ironing board, the traffic signal, the gas mask, the portable electric hair straightener, uh, automatic gear shifts, so you couldn't drive. All right. Technology for telephones and faxes, coffee filters, tons and tons of inventions that we use every day and that we just go okay. Nameless, faceless people.

Karen McFarlane: 26:13

Yeah, yeah, and it's also a shame that we see our history, black history in particular, under attack. I think I just read that the African American Museum in Boston just got its funding cut under right under the anti-DEI agenda. And you know, those types of moves are again just very telling and frustrating, because why is Black history anti-DEI, right? So all of these things that you're just listing, even for women, if no one knows that these people existed, that they were contributors to society, if you can't see it, you can't believe it. Check mark on this list of controlling what people know about themselves right, controlling the educational system, and we can see remnants of that right from our history, especially during slavery, when they didn't want enslaved people to read or write or to know anything, because that was a level of control, even when you see these cuts to Medicaid and Social Security, these are all things that create unsure footing for particularly vulnerable people, people. And when you combine that and you combine a lack of education, right, you really create this community of people that are very susceptible to propaganda and that can't go or learn how to access the better information for themselves. Right, and it just feels very intentional. And again I go back to this broader question what is the ending? What is the big why? What are we not seeing that is happening even behind the scenes? That is not reported on, right, um, because what's reported on is the shiny objects, yes, well, a whole lot of other stuff is going on in the dark.

Karen McFarlane: 28:52

So we have to be like wary. We have to, um, we have to, in many ways, uphold our educational institutions. They have problems Right. Harvard's under attack for a lot of different reasons, right, but it is still a beacon. These colleges and universities are still a beacon of education that help us grow and develop our critical thinking and creative thinking skills that are so important for us to advance in human society and help us grow as individuals as well in our families. So education is still something that we need to reach for, however we achieve it. And so, yes, we need to uphold these banners. They need to be fixed and corrected. They're not without flaws, but if they're not there at all, if they're being controlled by the government, if certain individuals are banned I mean, if foreign students are banned and that ban upholds, then we go on to the next tier, right, who does that affect?

Brittany S. Hale: 29:57

Right, and mutual investment for diplomacy's sake. Right To know that we can establish a shared brain trust, yeah, and that exposure to one another's worlds and cultures. Maybe I'm just being optimistic, but friendship creates a space where you know we can be connected.

Karen McFarlane: 30:26

Absolutely, absolutely. We only, we only grow by learning from one another. Like you, just can't talk to the same people and do the same thing.

Brittany S. Hale: 30:36

I mean you can't that's. I think that's that's. That's the goal. Right is talk to the same people, do the same thing, rinse and repeat but uh, how is that innovative?

Karen McFarlane: 30:54

I mean, america has been this culture of advancement and innovation for the longest period of time. It's's led industries right Since it began right.

Brittany S. Hale: 31:02

America is a baby country. The United States is a baby country because of people's innovation and ingenuity.

Karen McFarlane: 31:11

Exactly. So what does that look like in the future? Or maybe are we just wrong? Maybe, if we become so incredibly insular, we grow. I don't know Right, I don't see that, but maybe that's my limited thinking. I don't have access to all the information. All I know is when I interact with different people and cultures, it makes me better, yes, and when I see that in organizations that embrace the diversity of their people and all that they bring to the table, it makes them better. So why wouldn't it make the country better?

Brittany S. Hale: 32:00

Excellent question.

Karen McFarlane: 32:03

These big questions. So, harvard, keep fighting back. Yes, harvard Law School all right to good use and show everybody why they still need to fight to come there, exactly. And pay tons and tons and tons we know that you need the foreign, foreign students to come right, for not only let's keep it real, not only for uh, that that diverse perspective, but foreign students tend to pay full tuition as well. Right, americans can't afford.

Brittany S. Hale: 32:36

Yes, they are not. Federal aid is not available to them.

Karen McFarlane: 32:41

Exactly, and so you know there's an economic driver there as well. But we need the schools to come together and fight back. I mean, at the end of the day, one person, one organization, one university can't do all the stuff alone, so they need to form coalitions, because if Harvard loses, guess who they're coming after? Yep, it's a long game, we'll see. We'll keep watching.

Brittany S. Hale: 33:17

As will I.

Karen McFarlane: 33:18

As will Mina, yes, mina, bye Mina, right Mina we'll keep an eye on it we will, until next time, see ya, see ya, brittany.