Karen McFarlane: 0:36

okay for the audience. We know we catch up a little bit beforehand and we were just talking about something very funny and yes negotiation if you will. Yes, exactly, but today we're, we're gonna I touch on some really interesting, serious kind of topic. Right, you want to introduce it, you want to introduce it.

Brittany S. Hale: 1:05

Yeah. So to those listening, I'll just preface this by saying I was just scrolling through my feed and I realized we're having a conversation with someone else and we're just talking about what we're seeing on the same platform and I realized our viewpoints are completely different, despite having similar interests, despite having similar backgrounds. Having similar backgrounds, what our algorithms are feeding us are completely different and what we are thinking about wrestling with is so challenging. I might get news cute animals, you know cooking, some more news, some pop culture stuff you know.

Brittany S. Hale: 2:00

But even in the news, the way that the news is shared, what we consider to be factual, you know, the perspectives of the way that we're viewing the world and engaging with the world, so completely different.

Karen McFarlane: 2:23

I mean fair. I mean it's really powered by what we press like on, how much time we spend on something, and it's sometimes, you know, something dramatic might catch my eye and I end up watching it, but that doesn't necessarily mean I want to keep seeing it. But then it's fed to me and I always wonder, like what is that doing to me? A to reinforce, reinforcing the things that I like, which, okay, I love cute dogs and babies, right, um, but then also, when you get a little bit more serious than dogs and babies, like it's probably reinforcing some of the narratives that I believe, but not necessarily introducing me to opposing point of views for me to think more critically about exactly and you have to actively search that stuff out.

Karen McFarlane: 3:15

And social media at least how I use it Right. I like things given to me, right, yeah, so yeah, I mean it's.

Brittany S. Hale: 3:26

It's the probably the most energy efficient dopamine hit we can have, and so I think there's something to be said. So, for example, I back when I was an undergrad. We hosted a panel and I forget the topic, but I remember there was an econ professor that we'd invited on the panel and the way that he saw the world was so different than me and I remember just boring holes into the side of his head and I was just so angry with him and looking back on it, I realized that that's one.

Brittany S. Hale: 4:14

Why colleges and universities are such a crucial space is because you are introduced to ideas that may brush up against how you see the world. Right to engage with my own thought, question my own self, my own worldview and ultimately I realized that I understood his point. I didn't agree, but I could understand and I was able to move out of that space of emotion and ego. Right, I'm just mad at him, right, and I'm just boring holes into the side of his face. How could this man say this? How could this man understand this? And I was able to move into a space to say, okay, well, if I disagree, why and what facts do I have access to that supports my own?

Brittany S. Hale: 5:12

argument so maybe I'm just now realizing, maybe this is also some of what led me into law school. But because social media is so much more salient now, I think we get less of that. Because you can block, you can quite literally say not interested. And I'm not saying that we need to understand or agree with every view. There are some views that are just so abhorrent no, thank you. Right. But we don't get that as often because of how we receive information.

Karen McFarlane: 5:56

You know absolutely and I think if you go back so, like in high school, for example, of how we receive information, absolutely. And I think if you go back so, like in high school, for example, you are told pretty much what to think, or at least back when I went to high school. I think now some high schools promote more critical and creative thinking, or at least some of the private schools do. So. You're told what to think and then in college you are invited to think. And I used to say this and I still believe this I don't think that college is a place where you go to figure out what you want to do in life at least not undergrad.

Karen McFarlane: 6:31

It is to think critically, to learn how to think and learn how to learn right. And so you are given that safe space to explore the ideas, to disagree, to come up with your own theories, and that is a really important aspect of how you approach your career and life. And today it's even more important because the world is changing so dramatically in terms of technology and advancements that, beyond certain professions, it's really hard to skill specifically for one thing, and maybe also to your detriment, to skill specifically for one thing. But I think the other thing that has changed over the past, you know, eight to 10 years or something is that people used to be closer together I'm generalizing in their thinking. Sure, I'm generalizing in their thinking. So your viewpoint might be here and your viewpoint might be over here, but you kind of met in the middle with some of those things and it was clear to see how you could do that.

Karen McFarlane: 7:45

It didn't feel as contentious as it does right now and I feel like people are so far apart that it is hard to bring them back to the middle. And social media doesn't necessarily help with that because it's feeding that one point of view, whereas, you know, I grew up in a very analog time and you know television before even cable, set amount of channels. The news came on at a certain time on a certain channel and you watch that and you all, everyone got the same information at the same time, right In, pretty much in the same way. How they receive it might be a little bit different, but in the same way, and that's how the world was. And then cable came on and then you had 24 hour news shows, which I think also is similar to social media.

Brittany S. Hale: 8:48

Terrible for your nervous system. No one needs news at 2am.

Karen McFarlane: 8:52

Exactly, and, of course, the newspapers were very popular. Right Again, another vehicle that people got information the same way, and it was a trusted source. And now social media opens up the doors to I can't think of the word, but like a multitude of quote, unquote experts, and it seems believable because people are very focused on getting their information in this one way instead of what we may traditionally call credible sources. And now the question of credibility has come up who's credible and who's not?

Brittany S. Hale: 9:30

Yeah, and the ability to have nuance and discourse around the nuance.

Karen McFarlane: 9:37

Yes.

Brittany S. Hale: 9:37

Because you now there's a check. Our executive producer feels she feels very strongly about this, so excuse her.

Karen McFarlane: 9:50

It's okay. You don't usually listen to her voice, I know, so this is a welcome addition.

Brittany S. Hale: 9:55

Yes, she feels is a welcome addition. Yes, she feels very strongly about it. But you'd be able to have moments where you could connect and say okay, I don't agree with you on these two points, but we agree on six other points.

Brittany S. Hale: 10:16

And therefore, there's enough value in this relationship for us to continue. On social media, you can be canceled or unfollowed because of misstating something, mistakenly misgendering someone, which again, for depending on where you are and how you stay, whatever it is right and there's no room for, or there's less room, I think for grace, because now you can say I don't have to compromise with this person who disagrees with me. Now I need you to agree with me on all 10 points.

Karen McFarlane: 11:05

Yeah.

Brittany S. Hale: 11:06

And if you don't agree with me on all 10 points, you are the villain, you are the other, you are the other, you are my adversary in a way that is difficult to maintain, because then you're only speaking, you're speaking in an echo chamber and that you know much used phrase. You were quite literally preaching to the choir, and then where do we go from there?

Karen McFarlane: 11:58

had, like you said you had, you had to compromise, and now you don't, because there's all these other people that think like you. So you must be right. You can remain steadfast in your position and you can be. You can just totally be unmovable, and that's not healthy, because that's not the real world, because, regardless of all these people out there in the ether that agree with you, they may not necessarily live next door or go to your school or be the people that you're going to work with. That's your reality and there's a mix of point of views and experiences that you're closing yourself off from because you are focused on your social echo chamber, social media, echo chamber, right, and it doesn't invite critical thinking. You know I'll say you know I need to give an example, which is going to be a silly example. There's, you know listeners know we love the Real Housewives, right? Yes, so you know you, you introduced me to Reddit, which I'm going to never forgive you for. You're welcome.

Karen McFarlane: 13:02

Because the problem is with Reddit is that you know the issues that I have, let's say, on Instagram. I haven't been on TikTok in a while because it really just sucks my brain dry and I need to give it a little space. Dry and I need to give it a little space. But the problem with Instagram is that I don't feel like commenting on the things that I want to say, to counter something or whatever. It's just not the space. But Reddit will give you the safe space to do it the long form response, long form everything. I'm just like. Do that, right? Great, it's very cathartic in that way, but, right, you are also forced to confront opposing points of views on what you're talking about. So the things that I mostly comment on on Reddit are about real housewives, and so that's pretty much exclusively what it is, and so I have a point of view about the housewives, or a housewife that I believe, and then something pops up about so-and-so, whatever, and it's the opposite of my point of view.

Karen McFarlane: 14:04

I click on it and I instantly get angry, right, I'm mad that they think differently than me, right, and I'm like that's so dumb. First of all, it's real Housewives. Why are you getting mad? But secondly, let me read this thing and see why they think differently about it. I can agree or not agree. Right, again, this is low stakes because it's Real Housewives, but it's also an indicator how I need to operate for more serious topics. Yes, right, so I need to be open, which I am, I guess I'm just very like specific about Housewives sometimes. But you know, because it is low stakes, I don't have to be open. But in life you need to be open to like why does that other person think that way? Where do they get that from? Right, you have to say, although I don't agree. But why? Where is that coming from?

Brittany S. Hale: 15:12

Yeah, and this is the part that makes advocacy, which many of us are introduced to in these higher education spaces or even in your community, right, there are always going to be advocacy groups. And advocacy groups don't only engage with one another, right? They don't only engage with the people who agree with them, right. They don't only engage with the people who agree with them. The real change happens when they engage and inform, and, at times, persuade, people who either disagree or are ill-informed. That's how you build consensus. Yeah, there's a. Did you know, right? What's important to you? Let's prioritize what's important to you and let's figure out how to work together.

Brittany S. Hale: 16:10

And I think that's it's very difficult. And so, even with a Reddit right, you can. Even with a Reddit right, you can. You know, I, I, I live in the space of conflict. I don't I'm not sure why I chose it, but I did. But I'm fascinated because of the lack of self-awareness that people have, and most people don't know how to argue, most people don't know how to disagree, most people don't understand how to engage in conflict in any way that is productive, we push it away and we'll say, oh, I don't agree with them, they're blocked.

Brittany S. Hale: 17:00

Agree with them, they're blocked. So we don't get to question is there a logical fallacy that they're operating with? Is this a straw man argument? Are they truly arguing in good faith or are they and now we have to deal with right? Are they trolling? Is this false information? And the other issue with social media that I see happening from a generational perspective is that we have older generations that are more susceptible to manipulation through social media because they don't have any sort of updated digital media literacy.

Karen McFarlane: 17:32

Right.

Brittany S. Hale: 17:34

So you can put out a photo that's AI, you know where the person has maybe eight fingers and they'll say, oh my gosh, this is real, this is happening. You're like, ok, well, this person does it Notice that they don't have a thing. They don't have five fingers like they normally do in these Getty images. Other things are happening. This is actually not a real photo, or the person that you're arguing with is a bot, right, and it was quite literally designed to stoke dissension and anger and all of these feelings. And I'm sure there are spaces, but I don't come across them often. So that's my own research that I think I should do. But my question is how can we increase this? How can we increase this media literacy for really every generation?

Karen McFarlane: 18:35

I mean, it's a really great question because I mean, just even adding to the AI, with eight fingers people can just Photoshop existing things. Things look real and you have to always question is this real? I find myself doing that all the time. Is this real, can I really believe this story? And we have to stop relying on clips of information.

Karen McFarlane: 18:59

We do need full context. Right, we absolutely need full context, and that's what's missing from, you know, the majority of these dialogues is where did this come from? Really from, really right, and why did this person say this thing? And the why is big. Right, it's not our interpretation of the why, it is really the full context of the why. And also citing sources, because one of the things that social posts don't do well is, say, answering those questions. They'll put up a you know controversial quote, um, and you know for for clicks and comments. They'll even, they may even say who said it. But can you find the source to go? Validate your? Validate yourself or the people who are more intellectually curious about the context? Validate yourself or the people who are more intellectually curious about the context? No, so the barrier is high on purpose, right, and that's what's very, very irritating. And then it stokes that conflict.

Karen McFarlane: 20:12

One thing that you've talked about conflict but I think the other thing that I think people don't realize is that you know they engage in conflict every single day. It doesn't have to be right, negative or tense conflict. Like you engage in conflict with yourself, like what am I going to do this morning? Like you know or do you feel guilty about what you did or did not do, and you negotiate those conversations with yourself and even with a family member what are we going to eat for dinner? Those things are. You're having a conversation about what I should and what I should not do and how to meet in the middle, and so you are practicing it. You just don't know how to externalize it and call it what it is, because conflict is always viewed as I'm fighting with you about something right, like you've talked about. It's a difference between what two people want, but it can also be the difference between what you think you want and what you should want for yourself as well. Exactly, and if you kind of reframe it, then you realize, oh, I have some of these skills right, I just need to externalize them and deal with them a little bit differently. I think the part about conflict that is truly challenging is the conversation around it. Right, so there's a conflict and there's a difficult conversations, and that's people get uncomfortable, right, so there's a conflict and there's a difficult conversations, and that's where people get uncomfortable, right, um, and they need to get more comfortable with that, and also people need to get really comfortable with that feedback. So it's a give and take.

Karen McFarlane: 21:48

Like I had a conversation the other day someone reached out to me and I didn't know them she didn't know me, but we're in the same organization and she wanted to ask me a question about something I had done, but she didn't know how to do it because it was a conflict, okay, right, and she didn't know how to do it, but I could tell that she wanted to ask me something. Right, and she didn't know how to do it, but I could tell that she wanted to ask me something and she was uncomfortable. So I'm a person who I want you to ask me. Let's deal with it. And so I tried to create the space for her to do it. I tried to. She doesn't know me, so give her a little bit of my personality in an open and friendly way, and then, you know, say, hey, you, you know.

Karen McFarlane: 22:40

So what is it you want to talk about? And she said you know, I really didn't know how to bring up this conversation. So she asked me the question, talked a little bit about she's like I was really nervous about the conversation, but you just made it easy. I'm like yeah, you know. I was like yeah, I did it. Okay, here's I did it. Okay, here's why I did it, here's the context for why I did it. Right. And you know what else I did. I said, and I'm sorry if it created conflict for you, all right, but let's try to solve this together. Right, I'll do this part, because this is what I did and I can, I can correct that. And then you do this part. You know, and it could have been completely contentious, right, you could have come in defensive.

Brittany S. Hale: 23:25

You could have just stonewalled and made it difficult and shut down the opportunity to connect Right, but you didn't, because you need to meet in the middle, right, right, I know I do.

Karen McFarlane: 23:38

I said this other person, I had this phone call with someone I want to resolve the conflict and they were like no, it's not going to work because they're not going to meet you, they're not going to receive, and that was really interesting too. You have to like know your, your opposing party. But all that to say, right, that the tricky part about developing the media literacy is that the feedback mechanism is really not there. Yes, you're really by yourself in looking at the content and trying to understand, understand, but you have to develop your critical thinking skills and your curiosity, which I know is your favorite word right my favorite values.

Karen McFarlane: 24:41

Hold up. Is this all there is to this? Should I do more, and should I do more research or due diligence before I repeat it or share it? And I'm talking about sharing it, like I know you're going to share stuff with your friends and family that you don't invent and talk crap about it, right?

Brittany S. Hale: 24:53

Yeah, but strangers who follow you Exactly, you have to be more thoughtful, totally. You know, this past week I was with a client on site and we played a game I'm big in using play to teach lessons but I split them in half. I took half the people out of the room. I split them in half. I took half of the people out of the room and so the first half. You know, there are people they were very proudly number ones and they said you are going to make a request and you are not going to stop advocating for that request until you get it. I can do that. I'm in the leadership role, I can do it. We're going the leadership role, I can do it. I said fantastic. Second group. I said they're going to make a request of you. No matter what they request, you tell them yes, but there's no way that's possible.

Brittany S. Hale: 25:53

And you can use some iteration of it, but I always want you to use yes, but but, when they hit their peak and you will know what that looks like Then I want you to switch to saying yes and and add something on to their request.

Brittany S. Hale: 26:08

Mm, hmm the number of people who got out of their seat, walked away, slammed their pen down. These are these are again completely hypothetical requests. It was up to them. It could be. I need your pen, or, karen, can you give me a call? Yes, but not today, that's not going to work. Yes, but I don't really know when we're gonna speak. Yes, but my phone is broke.

Brittany S. Hale: 26:36

Whatever, it is right and the goal is to teach what resistance feels like and looks like and what acceptance looks like, because once they hit that emotional peak where they just they're completely frustrated, once the person turns to yes, and some of them don't even want what they were requesting anymore, even though the person's saying, yes, I can give you a call and you know what, I'll come and see you and we'll have lunch. I don't want to go anymore. They completely forgot the assignment and I just want us to be mindful of what resistance looks like, what we're resisting against and acceptance and what we can accept, what it looks like to accept something, because very often we can't keep what our request is because we're so focused on the resistance, we're so focused on our emotional uh, you know, lack of emotional management, lack of emotional professionalism in the moment, but some people were so grateful for the yes and because of all of the resistance that they'd encountered up until that point.

Karen McFarlane: 28:06

So interesting and I wonder if you know that and I could. I wonder if that's like also based on personality and, obviously, experience, right? So if you are so used to getting a no and you're used to it and you expect it then you might be more grateful for the eventual yes and Right Versus if you're not used to getting it right, that throws you in a tizzy Yep, Right, and it doesn't even matter if someone's going to acquiesce later. I just wonder like I feel like there's so many layers there are so many layers.

Brittany S. Hale: 28:42

I mean we could talk more about it, but there are a lot of senior people who were in the first group. They were number one. And they're so used to using their seniority and their experience and their leverage, and they know how. I had one woman. She said I always get what I want. I know how to negotiate a salary. I'm going to talk about salary because I know how to get a salary and the situational positioning left her in her version. You you know, she felt powerless yeah, that's, that's pretty funny.

Karen McFarlane: 29:22

I took a um negotiation class and I kind of signed up for it last minute. So I was mortified to know that I actually had to negotiate with real people like every week. It's like who knew? I mean, it totally makes sense, but I obviously wasn't paying attention. So, um, but what was interesting is I walked in thinking that I wasn't a good negotiator, right, so that was my, that was my starting point.

Karen McFarlane: 29:52

And so, in thinking that, though, it made me very open to learning how to be a better negotiator and so it allowed me to soak up the knowledge, and then I had to actually practice it, which was oddly nerve wracking, because I'm like these aren't real negotiations, but what we did know as students was something similar to what you just talked about is like these aren't real negotiations, right, but what we did know as students was something similar to what you just talked about is like this is what you need to get out of it, right, you don't know what the other person needs to get out of it, and there's like point system and stuff like that. It enabled compromise, though to some degree, but then it also talked about not just the mechanics of negotiation but the sentiments behind it, like the personality and why people do what they do, and what I realized is that that's where my superpower lies. Right, it's not in the mechanics I get caught up in that but it's more like if people like you, generally speaking right, you're more willing to to help and reach a compromise, whatever the case may be, and so I would always take some time to develop the rapport first and then try to get to where I needed to go. You're a natural marketer. Let me leave this Right.

Karen McFarlane: 31:15

Maybe that's it. I don't think that I'm the primo negotiator. So you had some people, though that just like that woman, right.

Brittany S. Hale: 31:22

Yeah.

Karen McFarlane: 31:22

Boom, boom, boom and listen, in some cases that works right, Because it depends on what the goals are. And, at the end of the day, what you actually just you said was you have to focus on what you need to achieve and take the emotions out of it. So even in my building a rapport, I'm actually building emotions into it, right? And sometimes emotions need to be taken completely out of it, right? So you focus on the core thing. So, yeah, it's an interesting interpersonal dynamic it is.

Brittany S. Hale: 32:02

It is I, um, the next time I see you we'll we'll have to figure out some sort of situation for it to make sense to play, because I'm endlessly fascinated by creating these environments to examine human behavior.

Karen McFarlane: 32:23

But you can also see it, though, in social right. So when you're commenting and people are going back and forth, that is their attempt to negotiate a new way of thinking Correct or a new way for thinking Correct.

Brittany S. Hale: 32:35

And most times or a new way for you to entertain them.

Karen McFarlane: 32:40

To give the feedback. To give the feedback.

Brittany S. Hale: 32:42

To say, depending on how they're looking at it, the value that you're providing.

Karen McFarlane: 32:46

If you're informing them.

Brittany S. Hale: 32:47

They now say okay, well, I would like for you to inform me this way, or I would like for you to speak about these things specifically Yep, it is a means of entertainment. I need for you to talk about x part of your life. I need for you to show us this right.

Karen McFarlane: 33:03

And so we, we're increasingly voyeuristic yeah while also being increasingly disconnected, which is so interesting right yeah, tell me everything about your life while I hide behind this random exactly and say all sorts of things about your life without full, again, without full context context yes, yes, don't make it too long.

Brittany S. Hale: 33:30

In 10 minutes or less, tell me everything that I need to know about yeah, and you know it.

Karen McFarlane: 33:36

Interesting, particularly in the comments, right, when I'm not caught up, sometimes I'm just sitting there. I'm like, wait a second, how do you know that? How do you random commenter know more about that situation than I do? Right, and sometimes I will say something like you know, I'm like that's, you know, I don't know intriguing or maybe even salacious, right, and I'm like, oh, is that true? Right, and then I go searching because I want more information in depth, right, and I can't find it. Because I want more information in depth, right, and I can't find it. Or I find something and it's pretty pedestrian, right, it's not really what they said. I'm like, ugh, right, so that's not really true.

Karen McFarlane: 34:27

But this post has like a zillion comments on it and people are like just blowing that up and it's just perpetuating the narrative, and it actually makes me think of the whole Hollywood controversy with the movie this. This ends with us. It ends with us with Blake Lively and and for the listeners, you know. So what's alleged is that, you know, baldoni's group went on a smear campaign in social media to smear Blake Lively, and I don't know if that's true or not. However, I see how easily it could happen because you just place these things with the right people and nobody goes any deeper than what's right in front of them.

Karen McFarlane: 35:14

Wow, I don't know how you counter that and I just I think that social media is for lack of a better term it's just making us dumber. I don't want to call people dumb, I really don't, but I'm just. I know for me, um, that when I go deeper, I learned so much more, and when I don't, I really know nothing Right, and unfortunately, a lot of people are getting their information just from that one source. I mean, in school we're taught to, we're taught to cite various different sources, that's true, and then we don't.

Brittany S. Hale: 36:04

Oh, my goodness Well.

Karen McFarlane: 36:07

We haven't solved the media literacy problem.

Brittany S. Hale: 36:09

Not yet. We're close, I mean we told people what to do. We did, we did. I just need to provide some sources. Oh, there you go. They should just listen to us. But if you're interested. We are a great starting point, I must say.

Karen McFarlane: 36:26

We are, but we also provide continued learning resources for every episode, so you can dive deeper into what we're saying and formulate your own opinion. Very true, yeah, so we practice what we preach right mina, we preach, she's much more satisfied she was not in the director's seat right that. That was the problem.

Brittany S. Hale: 36:55

That was my mistake To listeners. My apologies. I did not have her in her director's chair and for that I apologize. There we go.

Karen McFarlane: 37:05

Let me know for next time. Alright, brittany, until next time, bye, bye.