Brittany S. Hale: 0:32

Hi Brittany.

Karen McFarlane: 0:36

It's been a week. It's been a week, you know, been a year of a week over here. I know, I know, but you know, I think you know, every week we talk about, you know, the drama that's going on in the world. I'm not saying that you know, I love the drama. Well, I like drama, not the drama that's been happening. Let me just correct that.

Brittany S. Hale: 0:54

I like to observe it, not to be involved you know.

Karen McFarlane: 0:59

But you know, maybe just have fun this week. What do you think?

Brittany S. Hale: 1:03

I think so. I think the energy's been pretty heavy. You know, there's power in seeking joy. Yeah, even in the darkest of places.

Karen McFarlane: 1:15

Yeah, exactly. So let's have fun with this week. Talk about different drama, different types of drama that's happening in the world.

Brittany S. Hale: 1:21

Okay.

Karen McFarlane: 1:25

It might not all be that fun, but at least it's just a different. It's a different angle, absolutely Listen.

Brittany S. Hale: 1:30

As a pop culture connoisseur, can I tell you there's been a lot going on and our executive producer, mina, has been telling me there's all sorts of things happening in the zeitgeist that she's about to discuss.

Karen McFarlane: 1:47

All right, mina. What's the first topic? What's been going on?

Brittany S. Hale: 1:52

Well, she is a Housewives fan. Uh-huh well, she is a housewives fan, uh-huh, and there's a lot, a lot going on within the housewives, particularly around. I'd like your opinion on wealth worthception, specifically as it pertains to the real housewives of Beverly Hills.

Karen McFarlane: 2:19

Hmm.

Brittany S. Hale: 2:21

Now these tend to at least they're perceived as the wealthiest housewives, right, because they have these palatial homes in Beverly Hills, california. There's tons of space, there's jewels and handbags and $7,000 toasters and all sorts of things and, as has kind of become customary for housewives, there's at least one housewife who seems to be going through some financial trouble, right, or appears to be going through some financial trouble, while also dealing with marital issues, perhaps dealing with marital issues because of the financial trouble. Nevertheless, these women are invited to a caftans and caviar party. If you're unfamiliar with what a caftan is, it's a big, long, flowy fabric.

Karen McFarlane: 3:29

Looks quite breathable, quite comfy. Yes, and I think Jennifer Tilly said something like it covers up well. This is what it. You know. It covers up well. I was what I say. It covers up all the evils. I don't think she used that word, but that's what she meant. It is an inclusive garment.

Brittany S. Hale: 3:46

Anyone can wear it right um. And this is her baked potato party, where the baked potatoes would be topped with the finest caviar that one could buy.

Karen McFarlane: 4:00

Not the orange, because the orange caviar is very cheap.

Brittany S. Hale: 4:04

Yeah, I believe that's the salmon roe. Yes, that you can get at your local sushi spot.

Karen McFarlane: 4:10

They made a very big point of pointing that out for all of us on television, right big point of pointing that out for all of us on television, right?

Brittany S. Hale: 4:22

so we now have two housewives who are in conflict, and conflict is customary on housewives is part of why we watch, to see how people choose to engage in conflict, how they respond, and you know how people at least attempt to resolve it Right, typically at the reunion before the next season. But in this situation you have one woman, dorit, who is going through a separation with her husband, as well as financial issues. You have another woman, sutton, who is wealthy due to her divorce from her husband. She's a very generous alimony package, something to the effect of 300 plus thousand dollars a month. I think that's more than generous like quite, I would not have any complaints.

Karen McFarlane: 5:17

No.

Brittany S. Hale: 5:17

But they're arguing and another housewife interjects, erica, who had her fair share of financial troubles and you know her husband was indicted for misuse of funds as a personal injury attorney. As a personal injury attorney. But she says to her do you think you're bigger than her Speaking to Sutton about Dorit? And Sutton responds I'm going to have a conflict.

Karen McFarlane: 5:45

I'm going to have an ongoing conflict.

Brittany S. Hale: 5:47

Do you remember what Sutton says?

Karen McFarlane: 5:50

I think my wallet is I think my wallet is.

Brittany S. Hale: 5:54

What was your response? How did you watching that in real time? What did you think?

Karen McFarlane: 6:00

I was dumbfounded that someone would be as bold as to say that you know, especially given where her money came from. I mean, it may be a fact, I have no idea what their individual finances are, but I thought it was a super low, classless thing to say. It was low to say to someone who you know more intimately than we, as the audience knows, about her issues financial but also just relationship-wise, going through this like she's in a very hurt and difficult place. And then it was just classless to say in general, especially at a table with I don't know, maybe there's like 10, 12 women there to do that. I was dumbfounded and I found it was just very mean but also very telling of you know, to your original question, like what do you think worth means as an individual? And apparently in Sutton's view it is tied to your wallet.

Brittany S. Hale: 7:08

Absolutely, and this also, uh, this, this jogged my memory Also, this jogged my memory. Do you watch?

Karen McFarlane: 7:18

White Lotus. I haven't watched.

Brittany S. Hale: 7:19

It's on my list of ones to watch, we're going to have to have another episode. It's fantastic, no spoilers. But there is a character who comes from a moneyed family. Her husband's very wealthy and he comes from generational wealth, and they're invited onto a yacht on vacation. And it's a family and the mother is very hesitant.

Brittany S. Hale: 7:43

She says, well, we don't know these people, we don't even know if they're decent. And so her son says, well, they're rich, they have a yacht. And she says, well, I don't know them, I don't know they're rich and therefore we need to bypass any sort of further inspection of them because we automatically find them to be worthy, whether it's of our time building relationships, whatever. And so when this mom, she says, well, I don't know if they're decent, meaning that she needed them to be rich in a particular way, she needed to know how they got their money.

Brittany S. Hale: 8:37

And so her son says, well, you go to the country club all the time. And she goes well, that's different, because I know them and they know me. And so when she said that, I said okay, so it's not only just making sure that she's kind of checking the car facts, checking the wallet facts, right, to make sure that these people have not only money but the right type of money. But in that sentence I know them and they know me. She needs to make sure that any environment she puts herself in, she will be perceived as a person of high worth and she's not willing to risk being in an environment where that worth isn't recognized and respected.

Karen McFarlane: 9:30

I mean, in some ways I understand this point right Well, one, historically, if we go back to many centuries ago, right, like worth was determined by you know how much money you had, how much you could, you know land you owned and how many times.

Karen McFarlane: 9:48

We also can apply some of those and your time and your gifts right In whatever way. So in some ways I understand the mentality around that. It just gets amplified when you move into these spaces, and even new money versus old money, that's a whole other language that one needs to learn and why that matters in any meaningful way. I also feel like and this is from some of my own experiences witnessing things right, like when you are around people with like a lot of money, right, there's not a lot of people that can relate to that, because most people are somewhere here. There's very few people that are up here at the top, and so your lifestyle and your lifestyle changes, your environment changes, how you have to roll changes right, because you have to operate at this higher level, and so there becomes this distance that's in some ways unavoidable and the conversations change, and so it kind of just perpetuates this sentiment, right, and this um, this split between the haves and the have nots.

Brittany S. Hale: 11:48

Absolutely, and you know there's. We always signal that where we are, whether it is the type of phone you have, clothing, how you wear your hair, how you travel, right Vague references to where you travel, how you describe traveling Do you summer places or do you go on vacation?

Brittany S. Hale: 12:20

Right aspirational activity of naming your child and how, every now and then, names, the popularity of baby names will shift, because there's always this effort from the have-nots to try to clamber up in social status by naming their child something that they believe is a moneyed name, and that very same effort by the haves to distinguish themselves by using names that are distinct and again other themselves in a way that they can signal to one another who they are Right. And so when I think about this, it makes sense when you have resources, you want to continue to have resources, you want to grow access to those resources.

Brittany S. Hale: 13:36

We've heard phrases, like you know your network, is your net worth, things like that? But I also think especially in the United States, because we don't have traditional caste systems in the way that you might in Europe or Asia or Africa you know, there are other places around the world.

Brittany S. Hale: 14:01

The US is an experiment right, and you know, from its inception you had DEI right when white men who weren't landowners were allowed to vote, and that really changed the game in terms of representation. But within the United States there is this perception that the more money you have, we begin to attribute certain character traits to people outside of just how much money they have. We believe they are smarter, better looking, better people. Generally right, you are good because you are rich. You have to be of good character because you are rich. And I think about the way that we describe behaviors. So at this particular point in time, we have a tech billionaire who has a what is 14 children by five different women, and when we describe those women we talk about the mothers of his children.

Karen McFarlane: 15:14

Right.

Brittany S. Hale: 15:15

And we when he is described. Very often, if you ask a lay person, they will say he is a genius, and when you ask them why? Well, he has a billion dollars, right? So he therefore must be very, very smart, and we don't question having 14 children by five different women. We don't question those women who largely remain kind of hidden there's only a few that are in the public eye but we certainly don't question his decision-making with having them.

Brittany S. Hale: 15:54

We just say, well, he's a billionaire, he can afford them, and then we tap out However if your colleague told you they had 14 different children by five different women, what would your response?

Karen McFarlane: 16:17

be. I mean to be honest, right, I don't care how many children you have, as long as you're taking care of them.

Brittany S. Hale: 16:25

I really don't.

Karen McFarlane: 16:26

Fair and that they're well-provided for the mothers, cause I'm going to assume it's multiple. Not one person can have 14, right, 14 by five. They're taking care of them. You know, maybe you think it's your job to populate the earth, but I need you to be focused on them having good being, human being, good humans. My main concern, though, is that I don't. I don't know, being a mother of one right, how you focus on 14 different children equally and in a way that is going to make them well-rounded people. I don't know how to do that. Maybe other people have figured that out. That would be my concern, but I do understand that that description, if applied to somebody else, that description if applied to somebody else, this person has five baby mamas. He a baby daddy right, it's completely different.

Brittany S. Hale: 17:31

And even that phrase right Going from the mother of his children to a baby mama, immediately in your mind. If you're listening, watching, you have a vision of what that person looks like.

Karen McFarlane: 17:41

Karen, if.

Brittany S. Hale: 17:41

I came on here and I said, oh my gosh, I met this guy. He's really really great. He's also really great with kids. He has 14 of them and there are five moms. I'm going to put words in your mouth, but I'm guessing that you would say no.

Karen McFarlane: 17:59

Yeah, I would be alarmed for that question. Okay, I'll be like are they all over 18?

Brittany S. Hale: 18:12

Okay, is there anyone else? I think there would be a lot of questions right. And so these are the moments where I think about wealth and worth, because we could interchange and say, oh you know, this tech billionaire has five baby mamas, but that's not how he's described in the press. That's not, you know. There's a very marked difference and I think that we are perhaps unfairly, but definitely subconsciously, attributing certain character traits based on wealth or perceived wealth wealth, or perceived wealth, and in part, it's because wealth helps you attain certain things, right.

Karen McFarlane: 19:05

So you know, a couple of things you talked about is being smarter, looking better, dressing nicer. I mean, yeah, if you can afford, you know, high-end clothing to wear every day out to the supermarket, like wherever you're going, then and you can afford your Botox or your hair done or all those types of things that affords you a certain level, a certain look, look, I would love to get my makeup done every day. Well, maybe not, but you know what I mean. Like I look totally different when I have my full face of makeup, right, like professionally done, right? If I had a stylist, you would see me looking a completely different way and maybe have different perceptions about me, right, and so that affords you those things, but those are technically masks around it. If you can afford to pay your full ride for an Ivy League education and then the benefits that come from those associations, then it actually puts you in wealth, puts you into a circle that you are out of or you know you don't have the rules to the game. That is technically America, right, there's, there's rules to this stuff, and if you learn how the one thing about America to some degree, is, if you learn how to play the game, you can have your come up right.

Karen McFarlane: 20:28

Getting access to those rules is really the issue, and then not only getting access to the rules, access to the resources to actually play to win is a real issue, and so a lot of those things that we attribute are because people can buy them. What you can't buy and going back to the White Lotus example, which is what I wish this woman meant, I think is I don't know if they're the right people, is I don't know if they're the right people, meaning I don't know if they're good hearted people. Right? That's really what you should care about. Right? How are they? They can live any way they want to. That's what anybody has a right to do in America, but how does that showcase itself to the world? I'm not saying they have to give away all their money for it to be. Oh, they're good people. I'm not saying that, obviously, I would love them to Feel free to share.

Karen McFarlane: 21:34

There's that phrase. I think I'm getting it part right. But money talks, wealth whispers.

Brittany S. Hale: 21:40

I think I'm getting it part right.

Karen McFarlane: 21:41

But, like money talks, wealth whispers right and so you see the rich people. They wear their money very visibly and some of the richest people that we see well, the real wealthiest people we see have no labels right. They're unseen. Some of the professions that we mostly attribute to wealth right you know, may actually make less money than the plumber next door.

Brittany S. Hale: 22:16

Exactly, exactly. I mean, you know, back in the day, right to be an entertainer, to be an actor, was embarrassing, it was a mark of not having one. Or if someone from a wealthy family decided to be an actor, for shame.

Karen McFarlane: 22:38

Yeah, yeah.

Brittany S. Hale: 22:40

Yeah, right. So, going back to the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, when Sutton says I think my wallet, is right, is bigger than Dorit, right, and there's a, really I thought it was fascinating, because it's reality TV, you know, and of course they're not encouraged to break the fourth wall. But when you have at least three cameras on you at all times and you think about the fact that most of the people watching don't have what you have, mm-hmm, right, most of the people watching Sutton, her wallet's bigger than theirs, right? And so then I just thought about this to say, huh, I wonder how people viewing this, who are fans of Sutton, if any part of them, felt stung or felt shocked or annoyed or surprised by this reaction. Or is it that this is my escape from my life and they're bought in and they're all on her side? What do you think? I mean people who are on her side, all on her side.

Karen McFarlane: 23:58

What do you think I mean people who are on her side are on her side. I mean, here's the thing. I mean what she said might actually be the truth. Her wallet is bigger than mine. That's fact, right? I can't get out of the fact, right?

Karen McFarlane: 24:15

I even made a comment earlier about how she got her money. As a matter of fact, I'm going to play devil's advocate to myself, right? Which is like, because I said that she probably shouldn't even be saying anything because of how she got her money from her husband. However, she was in that marriage, she did run the household, raise the kids, and that's something we talked about on a previous episode, about women's in-home labor not being no worth being put to that, the right amount of worth being put to that, and so whatever she received is the value that she's supposed to receive, based on that agreement, for what she put into that marriage.

Karen McFarlane: 24:56

So I'm taking my little snide comment back because you know I need to correct myself. So, at the end of the day, you know, I don't know if it's true for Dorit maybe it is right so but it's true for many people, like you said, and how much she got her money doesn't matter. This just goes back to being obnoxious about it. That or money doesn't matter. This just goes back to being obnoxious about it, like are you a good person about what you have, right? Because, let me, I'm just talking about me. This is, this is just a plug for me, okay, like if I was a lotto right I, if you won the lotto, are we still doing the podcast?

Karen McFarlane: 25:37

We are still you. No one will know I won the lottery. Okay, Okay, you would not nothing. Well, hold on. My makeup might be better, but most things are not going to change for me. You might.

Karen McFarlane: 25:57

I might say, hey, let's go on a trip to X, y and Z. I got you right. You will experience nice things, but you will never feel any type of way about them, right? You will never feel less than because I have more than you, right, because I'm also a giver have more than you, right, Because I'm also a giver. So, unless you feel awkward about getting stuff, but I'll try and make you not feel that way. So there's that. I also have this dream of paying off people's mortgages and stuff like that. Yeah, because I believe home ownership is important. But I would be more of that wealth whispers person. You won't see labels all over me. I'll have a nice pocket books here and there, but you're not going to see. You know what I mean. There might be little touches, if you know me. So, yeah, that's kind of how I feel about it.

Karen McFarlane: 26:49

If the tables were turned at this age in my life I'm not saying at 25, I would have been like that, but at this age I'm more chill about those types of things. You know. I'm not saying I'm rich or anything like that, but I know that people didn't understand how I moved Right. Um, and you know there were certain things that I that I could do or did or little like this is why I wouldn't change that much Right, but that they would be like she got money Right, and that doesn't mean I did, I just there's a, there's just the way that I moved the things that I chose to do Right, to do that people prescribed something to me. I wasn't broke, that was clear, but I just really just want to be a good person at the end of the day. That's just my take.

Brittany S. Hale: 27:53

And it sounds like being a good person through your lens isn't dependent on it, doesn't depend on the wallet, but it's when provided with those resources, you're going to use however you have. Whatever you have, it's still using it to support others.

Karen McFarlane: 28:15

And I'm not going to throw it in your face like Sutton threw that in her face. So my issue is really with her attitude about it Rather than having it. Rather than having it, Because you're allowed to have whatever it is. Of course, yep, do whatever you want with it, right, but you don't have the right to throw it in people's faces. I think that's right. That's my yeah yeah about you.

Brittany S. Hale: 28:44

I mean I I agree with that. I think it's the behavior. So you know I love to get really into conflict and just nitpick and so I'll deeply analyze. But when I saw that I saw someone who was very prickly, very defensive and went to what she perceives she being sudden perceives as jared's weakness which is her financial situation.

Brittany S. Hale: 29:20

I saw someone who felt again like she was on the back step. She needed to go on offense and say something hurtful. What I thought was even more interesting was Dorit's response. You know, typically there are people who would have gotten up running from the table crying, screaming, whatever it was, and that wasn't Sutton's response. Sutton just said I mean Dorit's response she just said, okay, that was really low class. Internally maybe she recoiled, but externally it just kind of rolled off of her back and it seems like it bothered the rest of the people at the table more than Doreen.

Brittany S. Hale: 30:13

In conflict, when you're faced with that gap between what you want and what you're experiencing, if you're emotionally intelligent and I think Sutton varies in her emotional intelligence there the situational awareness would have you take in to say is this how I want to show up to people who are my friends and some new people? Right, there might've been people there and she's not familiar with. Is this the impression that I want them to have of me and of how I view my resources and how I view people with the lack of resources? And that to me was to your point was the concern. I think had she taken a beat, it wasn't worth it.

Karen McFarlane: 31:04

Well, that's why Erica said something, right, because I mean, what Sutton probably doesn't know I'm sure she does not know it, no one knows everyone's finances is you have offended more than just to read at the table, right and so to your point, right, like she should have just taken a beat and just paused and been like, okay, this comment although I'm mad at this person has reverberating effects, and so that's, I think, why Erica responded. Well, no, she said this comment that she said earlier, and that's when Sutton said what she said. But I'm sure at least Erica, at the table at the minimum right, felt some type of way about that, right. And when Dorit just said nothing, that was pure cancerian as far as I was concerned. Yeah, there was no more fighting with this woman.

Karen McFarlane: 32:02

She is now complete. She went so incredibly low, to a place where Dorit felt was the lowest, that she could possibly go Even. You know, there's nothing as a matter of fact, if they were not on this show, I'm convinced Dorit would never speak to Sutton again. Yeah, that would be it. Yeah, shut up.

Brittany S. Hale: 32:24

And, at least from what we've seen in the coming episode, sutton is still the one who's bothered by Dorit not speaking to her Mm-hmm, and so I thought that was a really interesting twist in what she her action, that she wanted to kind of just reassert her power, what she believed her power to be, which lies in her wallet. It didn't have the intended effect, because she's still seeking attention, approval, a connection with this person that she's just insulted.

Karen McFarlane: 33:01

Yeah, and I think it was also like a power move on Dorit's part. You know, in I'm not going to use the word resolving the conflict, but just ending the conflict for her. So you've gotten to a point where, at least in this moment, that you're not going to mend it because this person has gone to a place where you are not willing to go. There's also probably I'm just going to add the cancerian part in that she has more information that she could say she can go lower, but she has made a conscious decision to stop speaking because the next words out her mouth are going to be pure vitriol. Right, that's going to be really hurtful. I'm speculating based on her zodiac, but regardless, there's no need to continue that conversation.

Karen McFarlane: 33:52

I think that's an important lesson sometimes in conflict. Right, it's that you don't have to resolve everything right away in that moment. Sometimes things need space, as much space as it needs, and so you can come back on an even platform and talk through those issues. They were not there and also in front of the audience, where people could. Even just even having an audience creates a different dynamic, and then the element of people chiming in and adding to that creates another layer, although sometimes I feel in the Real Housewives that but some disagreements would be helped by people providing perspective, truthful perspective, because you have two people that have seen something very differently. Sometimes people are lying Right, and then you can have some relatively neutral third parties come in and reset what was seen or what was said by both right, and that kind of happens in a very soft way. But sometimes I think it needs to happen more directly and that's what frustrates me sometimes about the Real Housewives. But again it's all about the drum.

Brittany S. Hale: 35:16

I know. I still think that they should just give us a call. Andy should just give us a call and say you're better equipped to break this down. We're happy to do it, andy, we're happy to do it.

Karen McFarlane: 35:33

You know, well, I'm sure the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, et cetera, et cetera, etc. Because we have Atlanta, start just starting. So that's going to be very spicy going forward. You know, um, and you know people in the world just give us all sorts of things to talk about, so we'll just keep doing it. I love it all right well, I know you'll be watching the next episode with me, so absolutely.

Brittany S. Hale: 36:04

We'll keep you posted. And again, folks, I understand it's a challenging time we are I mean, I'm a millennial, so I feel like my whole life has just been a series of unprecedented times, but we have more. I'm Zanex and I feel like every piece of progress is gone out the window consider it a act of useful rebellion to seek joy, to laugh, to connect, in spite or maybe because of everything that's going on. So I encourage you to do the same totally.

Karen McFarlane: 36:50

I'm now like inspired by the meme that's going around. That's like that says the world is falling apart, but black people out here learning line dances. Let's continue to have a little fun in the middle of the chaos absolutely.

Brittany S. Hale: 37:11

Oh, before we go, I just have a funny thing. Yeah, I was in a home department store and I had Nina with me and she was like in my jacket, so you just see her little head popping out, and this guy stops me, and English wasn't his first language. I understood what he meant. But he says you know what race is your dog? My first thought was man, you know, race is on everybody's mind. And then my second thought was man, you know race is on everybody's mind. And then my second thought was like she's black. Obviously, like what? This is a black girl. But um, he meant to say you know what?

Karen McFarlane: 37:53

breed is she?

Brittany S. Hale: 37:55

but yes, the sheen, but yes. My daughter?

Karen McFarlane: 38:01

Forget the breed business, she's Black. How many names she got? Is she a true Black dog?

Brittany S. Hale: 38:08

Yes, exactly, she has a ton of names. She's Boo Boo, Beautiful Girl. You know tons of them, Right?

Karen McFarlane: 38:23

I just look at her now because she had black. If she's black black because she's bougie black, but she's black black, she would have. Uh, nina asaka marie brown, oh, I haven't talked to you about her middle name.

Brittany S. Hale: 38:34

You know she she does have a middle name, and when I called the vet and they said what's her first about her middle name? She does have a middle name. And when I called the vet they said what's her first name, her last name? And I said you're forgetting her middle name. So yeah, she is a black female, we are all.

Karen McFarlane: 38:49

Americanized here Right, she is a black female.

Brittany S. Hale: 38:51

All right.

Karen McFarlane: 38:52

Miss Mina Did we do okay, Mina, because you woke up.

Brittany S. Hale: 38:56

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah, she's like okay, I'm trying to go back to sleep.

Karen McFarlane: 39:01

Exactly Alright, until next time. Until next time. See ya, bye, nina.