Karen McFarlane: 0:32

Hi, brittany, I'm good, I'm good.

Brittany S. Hale: 0:38

Happy International Women's Day I feel so fortunate to be partnered with such an amazing, brilliant, awesome Kinserian woman.

Karen McFarlane: 0:58

Well, thank you. The honor is all mine to be partnered with you.

Brittany S. Hale: 1:06

I was doing some research about International Women's Day and there's so many origin points, which is great, but it just especially now it feels important to honor all of the facets and the experience that make us us, and being a woman is definitely one of them. Um, I remember being young and I just could not wait to grow up and just be a woman, and I don't know. I was just always surrounded by so many awesome, powerful women. That's all I wanted to be, so no, that's that's.

Karen McFarlane: 2:00

I mean, I didn't want to grow up. I know that for sure.

Karen McFarlane: 2:03

Um, I was very happy to be cared for by the wonderful women around me yeah, I mean, adulthood is vastly overrated, for sure yeah, exactly, you know totally would like to go back um in my younger capacity, not as an older person that turns younger, you know, as you get become a senior, but no, I mean, I think it's important to acknowledge, you know the people that, especially when you're younger, maybe you realize that they were inspirations at the time, maybe you didn't.

Karen McFarlane: 2:37

I mean, I think there's definitely people, I think, back to now, that helped shape me, but I didn't look at it that way at the time. But it was important to see these different people, people that were like me as women Black women in particular that I could see myself in and in some ways model some aspects of myself after them. It's important to be seen in that way. It's also important to acknowledge those people that help shape you. So they so, they know, so they know that they feel good. I think that people don't realize, in particular, black women don't get celebrated and praised as often as maybe some other groups, but whether they do or they don't, it's always good to know that you made an impact on somebody.

Brittany S. Hale: 3:36

Yes, yes and sharing that is free, right it doesn't cost anything to share that impact.

Karen McFarlane: 3:47

Yeah, yeah. So first I would want to acknowledge a couple people. So let me acknowledge my, my mom, for example. Like you know, obviously she was around my entire life, right, and I was talking to someone last night and I was like I am so much like my mother in in many ways that I don't recognize until I do certain things you know, and usually the things that I'm that surface for me.

Karen McFarlane: 4:20

At the time I felt like they were annoying and then I do them and I realized that the reason I'm doing them is because I care, right, and so that's where it's surfaced from and so I should have grace with that.

Karen McFarlane: 4:34

She also has been like just a very strong, forward-thinking figure and she always sees opportunity, she does her research and even despite getting older, she wants to keep her brain young, right, so she leans into those things that you know, keep her mind very active and that she can be a contributor, ongoing contributor to the family.

Karen McFarlane: 5:06

There's a lot of things I don't think that you know I would have done without my parents, obviously, but both my mother who you know, she in her career, is an immigrant, both of my parents are immigrants from Jamaica and I think one of her first jobs was in banking. She didn't want to be a teller because she felt like that was going to be a stagnant position, so she actually refused the job as teller, even though she was in this country without work. They called her back, I think, the next day to give her more of a client-facing role and she stayed in banking and she elevated even after leaving her role parenting me and then going back to become one of the biggest wealth managers on Wall Street, you know. So I saw that growth and her ability to do both things right, which I think just I don't know if I think about that every single day, but it's just because it's part of what I've seen, but it just makes all things possible.

Brittany S. Hale: 6:19

I love that. Love it, karen's mom. We love and appreciate you. Thank you for bringing her here, and I would love to similarly extend that to my mother and my grandmothers both of whom were phenomenally progressive and I would say important in child rearing space.

Brittany S. Hale: 6:51

So my mom actually went back to school when we were young. So I've experienced her as a stay-at-home mom, I've experienced her as a working mom and in both it really cemented that sense of purpose because whatever she did, she was going to do it really well. Whatever she did, she was going to do it really well. And there were moments where you know I'd come home, she'd be there, there'd be snacks, you know everything was so well run that I took it for granted.

Brittany S. Hale: 7:23

Yeah, of course, and with her going back to work and seeing how in retrospect, of course, you know from a child's eyes as soon as she got home from work, my sister and I were rushing to tell her everything that happened with our day and what we were doing. And then, of course, my dad's there and he's, you know, sharing with her. And now, having worked a whole day, when I come home all I want is silence. And so, thinking about how she had these two kids who were, you know, looking to be centered, a husband also looking to be centered and trying to create that time for herself, I'm just like I have no idea how you did it. My grandmothers, both were in the medical field. Both of them had seven children, so I don't even know how. Both my parents are the youngest of the seven and for them, both from different communities, both having different backgrounds, but getting to know them as women, not just in their role you are a mother and therefore you take care of me. You are my grandmother and therefore you take care of me.

Brittany S. Hale: 8:47

But later in life, my mother's mother. I got to know her just having conversations and she had the whole life I didn't know about. You know, I didn't know she was um. She was the first black model for a um, a department store in the Southeast.

Brittany S. Hale: 9:05

Oh yeah, and so that was really interesting for her to be positioned in that role and what that meant, and she'd spent time in New York and there were just I never knew that. I just knew that you know she didn't make these really great seafood boils every time we went down to North Carolina, but seeing how she advocated for herself, for her children, she was very well known for standing up for herself. At one point a man thought it'd be a good decision to call her outside of her name. She chased him down with a rifle In all spaces, commanding respect. She also had, you know, mixed race origin and because of how she appeared being, I would say, commercialized or having people pay her to touch her hair and just objectify it in some of the worst ways, yeah.

Brittany S. Hale: 10:19

And fighting to create a family despite everything that said that she couldn't yeah.

Karen McFarlane: 10:30

I think that's amazing right, and this is the callback to our ancestors, right that we need to make on a regular basis, and I think we need this to become more a part of our community, because even what you said about learning who our relatives are as individual people, learning who our grandmother was as a woman, who our mother is as a woman, not just as the person that took care of me that's such an important distinction that we don't really take time to do. I think one of my biggest regrets is my grandmother. She passed, so I didn't know my other grandparents my father's side. They died very early on and so did my grandfather on the other side, so my grandmother was really the one grandparent that I knew for a period of time and she ended up having dementia, ended up having dementia, and so I really never got a chance to ask her about her life.

Karen McFarlane: 11:41

Right, I get bits and pieces from people like my mother. Actually, my mother and my aunt get bits and pieces and she's credited, actually, with our family's ability to come over to America. Even my dad's side is credited with that right. Like she helped facilitate that and she came over. She was married, she had two children, but she left. She came over and got a job on her own as a CNA, I believe or I don't know if she was a true CNA when she first started and you know, that's pretty huge. And I've learned about, like some other people and other older people in my family, like one of, I guess, my great aunt was like the first nurse in the area where she lived, and like all of those things, and those things are lost because we no longer have a strong oral history within our culture, and it's something I think that's really important. That kind of ties us back to who we are. We don't call on our ancestors. It doesn't mean that you can't still have the religion that you practice, right.

Brittany S. Hale: 12:56

Right.

Karen McFarlane: 12:57

You can have that and other spiritual tools that keep you connected. Correct?

Brittany S. Hale: 13:07

Yeah, I will say, in the moments when I've thought about questioning my worth or felt insecure, I remember where I came from and you know that my grandmother in the Jim Crow South was not going to be condescended to, she was not going to be disrespected, she was not going to have people cause harm to her or her children and in a time when that could have meant life or death, that was my reminder like, no, okay, I can do the thing she was willing to, quite literally put her life on the line for her values. I can do it in similar or much better circumstances. And to your point about the passing down these stories, these oral histories that we have, it just reaffirms how important words are.

Karen McFarlane: 14:18

Words matter.

Brittany S. Hale: 14:19

Words mean things. Words communicate a history, a legacy, a worth and an identity. Yeah, so we're now in a time where I think everyone agrees that words mean things, but it seems like we're dealing in a space where those words are more polarizing than ever and people are taking opposite views of what to do with these words.

Karen McFarlane: 14:57

Well, I think you're putting it nicely, because we have an administration that is trying to erase many of these words that help people identify themselves, right? The new york times actually shared a list, um, the article, yeah, is these words are disappearing in the new trump administration, and it's a long list of words, but, like, let me just start with one of the main ones, or we just we've been talking about. If we were to have this same conversation, use the word women, which is on this list, okay, and not use the word black, which is on this list, right we couldn't talk about ourselves.

Brittany S. Hale: 16:04

And this list. Thank you for sending it over. So agencies have to limit or avoid these words. Is that correct? Yes, Okay, so I'm going to share some that stuck out to me and I'd love if you did the same. So I see accessible belong clean energy, polarization, pollution, sense of belonging, trauma victim. I'll just pause there. I'm jumping over a bunch, but those are just some, and I bring those up because, as we've talked about, whenever people think of DEI, they immediately go to race and gender.

Brittany S. Hale: 17:12

So, I purposely skipped over anything that could have been perceived as race or gender. But yeah, what sticks out to you.

Karen McFarlane: 17:24

Another one that sticks out to me is mental health, um, and political, because that word is used all the time, um. And what also sticks out to me is what's not on the list, which is men and which is also white. So there's black on here, there's Latinx, there's-.

Brittany S. Hale: 18:02

I don't see Asian on here.

Karen McFarlane: 18:04

Indigenous community, you're right. So Asian's okay. So white and Asian on here. Indigenous community, you're right. So Asian's okay. So white and Asian is okay and men are okay. So it's okay for us to talk about those groups, but it's not okay to talk about the other groups. That is what sticks out to me as well.

Brittany S. Hale: 18:25

Identity, the word itself is also.

Karen McFarlane: 18:27

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think I mean there's so many words on here just in the context of this conversation. The fact that women is on there and men is not Right Just actually kind of blows my mind. Like what are we? And the word and gender is on here too right For gender, gender-based, gender-based violence, gender diversity, gender identity, gender ideology, gender affirming care which we know is very controversial in this administration and gender. So we're not supposed to talk about gender at all and not specifically women, correct?

Karen McFarlane: 19:13

But or sex, or sex or sex, right, because LGBTQ and LGBTQ LGBT is on here as well. But when we see some of the examples that they call out from websites that have been changed, lgb is okay. So I think one thing we can kind of say kind of in a blanket way is that I don't know that these words have been completely thought out in terms of the context of everything, right? So if they do say limit or avoid, you know it's not a ban. I don't think you can ban words, but you could try, but I don't think you can. But what happens when you eliminate some of these words from in the context of the federal administration, right? What happens when you remove some of these words? What happens when you remove some of these words? How does that affect certain departments or policy? Right? My big question is okay, on the census, are you even doing that anymore? Because you can't use these words use these words.

Brittany S. Hale: 20:50

Great question. And if you are a federal organization giving federal funds to NGOs, nonprofits, how do you address a harm toward underserved communities if you can't talk about it? Or underrepresented communities, which can be men, yes, yes, right, I mean Females, feminism, multicultural, climate crisis.

Karen McFarlane: 21:23

All of these things to your, to that point that point does it affect one group?

Karen McFarlane: 21:29

I mean, the point has always been that certain groups are more harmed by the same situations. It doesn't say that the other groups are not harmed, like all groups are harmed by, say, climate change right. Some groups are harmed more by climate change right. And in any business we try to solve any problem. Let's just say any problem right, like you're assessing the risk factors for how you solve the problem, and the problem is usually so big that you have to start to narrow your focus. So you need to understand deeper data to figure out where to start and where to end. Right. And in this situation you might want to say, hey, let me focus on where something is doing more harm and mitigate that first and step it back. Or you could say let me focus on where it's doing less harm, learn from that so that I can improve something where it's doing more harm.

Karen McFarlane: 22:35

I mean, there's different ways to look at it, but you need to understand and unpack the underlying factors supporting that right. But how do you do it if you don't have the language to do that? To the context to do that? You don't. And what does it say to the rest of the world? It's like let's stop acknowledging that women exist. To your point about the non-profits, like if they're focused on women because that's what they they're doing, what is that? What does that mean? They no longer get funding because they're focused on women and they. I don't understand. I guess I'm just I'm rambling, I don't understand.

Brittany S. Hale: 23:20

I will say that the united nations acknowledged international women's day for the first time publicly in 1977. I feel that there are committees, whole committees, that are committed to addressing the challenges that women face across the world. Together, the United States has enjoyed a particular status, another band word for some time, as being part of the first world and having taken particular approaches toward women and posturing themselves right. The country's postured itself as having the moral high ground when it came to providing opportunity, support and freedom for women. Because we are a country that ostensibly focuses on freedom, this seems like anything but and the question that I posed many pods ago, many episodes ago what is the harm? What's in a word? What is the harm? What's, in a word, if, if the what clearly you're moving toward, if this group is truly superior, what is the harm in other groups identifying themselves, showing up for themselves? What is the harm?

Brittany S. Hale: 25:14

That is something that I just can't. I can't understand. We, at this point, I believe, have more girls right now that are being born than men we have. I believe it's around 55% of the country is women. Are we now to release them?

Karen McFarlane: 25:40

Yeah, the answer is yes.

Brittany S. Hale: 25:44

Where do they go? Where should we be right now, Karen? Where do they go? Where should we be?

Karen McFarlane: 25:49

right now. Well, you know, I think that part of the perceived issue is that, okay, America has enjoyed different forms of free labor free or low cost labor, right For a very long time. What's not always acknowledged is part of that free labor is women. Yes, so our marriage rates are generally lower now. Right, because part of what we were tied to in terms of our future well-being was being married and, you know, having access to resources and ways to support our livelihood and I can't remember what year it is, but I think it's similar around the 1970s, right, women could open up their bank accounts for the first time. Correct, because of that nature. So that independence started happening just basically 50 years ago, right, and so, with women being at home taking care of the children, providing that free labor, it allowed men to go and elevate their stature and build and do the things that they wanted to do, and they were only competing with other men in that regard.

Karen McFarlane: 27:19

Now that women have surpassed the original mandate, right, that competition is raising in many different ways. They're no longer home to support the males, so less males are rising up in the same way that they did before. They still, depending on who. You are right, and it's just kind of turned things upside down for that particular group and that could be viewed as a perceived threat to their own success and existence. And so if women return to the home and some of these traditional values, that opens up more opportunity for them. Less opportunity for us in terms of that growth, but definitely more opportunity for them, and maybe that's the long view. I don't know, I'm just riffing right now, but I want to just acknowledge that women have again, for a very, very long time, not been valued for the work that they performed in the home. That allowed a lot of you know, america's, you know reputation and notoriety and growth to happen.

Brittany S. Hale: 28:43

It's just we've just been cast aside, that's one view, absolutely, absolutely one view, I, and I agree with you. I think about the conversations that are kind of being had in the zeitgeist about the male loneliness epidemic. About the male loneliness epidemic, yeah, and it doesn't seem, which you know, by this mandate the government wouldn't even be able to solve because it's a mental health situation.

Brittany S. Hale: 29:23

That's true, right. However, you know, what we're seeing is a very blatant demonstration of coercive power. If we cannot center ourselves and we will force the exclusion and exclude is another one of the BN words we will force the exclusion of everyone who is not like us, and that is a choice, given that we are positioned. We have made friends around the world right We've. We've again also imposed ourself around the world right, we've again also imposed ourselves around the world. And how do we do that when there are women who are leading countries?

Karen McFarlane: 30:24

Yeah.

Brittany S. Hale: 30:25

We can't speak to humanitarian causes, to human rights violations, when we very may well be creating some right now.

Karen McFarlane: 30:41

Well, yes, but what we have seen is just not the acknowledgement of those facts. So it's not like, you know, even if we do it, it's not like we're going to talk about it and act accordingly, like, oh no, you know, we have ethics. Ethics seem to be off the table at this point of view, which is actually, I think, one of the most frustrating things for me. At this point of view, which is actually, I think, one of the most frustrating things for me, it's like no one's being held truly accountable for their actions or missteps or, you know, whatever that's that's happening in the world today. And it's just like what is maddening is that a list like this could exist at all in today's society and that it is unchecked. Right, like where is and maybe I missed it, so please holler at me and let me know where is the pushback? Right on what this means, like what the implications are of not using these words? Like again, like what policies is it going to affect? How does this trickle out to corporations? Right, like how I just there's just so many things that feel very open ended, and now it's just really this broad case for everything which we know doesn't work. It just you can say you want put word here for all, right, and that's cool, it should be that way, but it doesn't acknowledge how you get there, what are the barriers to getting there.

Karen McFarlane: 32:34

You have to acknowledge the pain points dead on, and most of this has to do with people and how people are treated. You know, I had a um, I was kind of in a conversation with chat GPT um, the other day. Conversation with chat GPT the other day, I was asking it like how, basically, how do you get rid of bias in people? Okay, and we had a very long, extensive conversation, but the short version is too long. No read, you can't. That's what Chad JBT said. You just can't because people come with their own perceived beliefs and you could take mitigating steps, but it will never erase it. It will always be there and that's why you have to acknowledge it so that you can address it or at least attempt to try to address it. If you try to erase it, it just sits below the surface and just confess itself in different ways.

Karen McFarlane: 33:43

I thought that was again, I'm giving you the paraphrased version, but like, that was very insightful. It was like and I'm like are you sure? Be creative? Like, yeah, actually, you know, and I get it. Sometimes it hallucinates, but it felt very it was giving me, it was giving me like examples of why and all this. So I just don't, I just don't know how this list exists and I I'm fearful that. You know, we can't have conversations like this and talk about ourselves. You know, openly. You know, of course, you and I can sit on the phone and chat about our experiences, but one of the things we like to do is share them with the world, and so it feels like there's a push to limit that.

Brittany S. Hale: 34:33

Which is unfortunate, because I find these conversations deeply valuable, as do our listeners. Yeah, it seems like what's going on is a phrase that tends to be overused in the startup world, which is you know, we'll build the plane as we fly, and I don't think there's an acknowledgement of what's lost and how it impacts the people on the land. Right, if we're building the plane while we fly, we're throwing things out without considering what happens, and, even though listeners may be screaming, that's the point, right? That is, you know these people in power, this is what they want to do, I would posit. There are unintended effects that even they have not yet considered.

Karen McFarlane: 35:28

It's not safe, that's. I mean safety is a real issue. I mean, you know, in startup land they're usually building software that's technically not going to kill somebody tomorrow. But when the government's doing things like this, and you know they have millions upon millions of lives around the world in its hands, there's an extra level of caution that needs to be paired with ingenuity that it doesn't seem as if they're taking based on the fallout, but I guess there's more to be seen. Things change every single day, but I think we, as women have to fight for our identity. All of us have to fight for our identity, but we as women in particular, we're half the population, no matter what the other parts of us are made up of, and we need to assert that authority. Agreed, so happy Women's History Month and International Women's Day.

Brittany S. Hale: 36:37

Yes, same to you. We will continue to honor women.

Karen McFarlane: 36:41

Absolutely Well, until the next time, bye, bye.