Karen McFarlane: 0:32

Hey, brittany, we're back, we're back.

Brittany S. Hale: 0:35

Hi Karen, how are you?

Karen McFarlane: 0:36

Hi, I'm good, but I really should ask how are you? Because you have a new addition.

Brittany S. Hale: 0:43

I do have a new addition. I don't know if you saw the fluff. She's so cute. Hi, Mina. She's like pushing, she's like I want to lay back again.

Karen McFarlane: 0:53

For those of you listening, listening Brittany has a new dog, I sure do yes what kind of dog she's a.

Brittany S. Hale: 1:02

Pomeranian. She's an AKC champion, so we are we're retiring, you know. We said well, we have a podcast with two highly awarded brown ladies on here. Why not add a third right?

Karen McFarlane: 1:21

I mean it is a very pretty shade of brown with some brown highlights here and there and that cute bow on her head. You're literally holding her like a baby, Like that is so cute.

Brittany S. Hale: 1:30

She refuses to be held any other way. I didn't start it, but she just leans a certain way and I'm just trying to make her comfortable.

Karen McFarlane: 1:40

Well, welcome, mina, to the show, to the E-Word, and we welcome your thoughts.

Brittany S. Hale: 1:48

She'll tell me I'll translate for her.

Karen McFarlane: 1:54

We got to get the dogs together, mina and marley. That'll be so cute. Oh my gosh that will be super cute in the meantime, you know what's going on in the world.

Brittany S. Hale: 2:07

Britney we are incredibly close to the election in the united states. If if you're listening elsewhere, I think you know I hate to sound so provincial, especially being an American, but I do think the world is watching with bated breath because you know, we recently Mexico recently welcomed its first woman president, which was incredibly exciting. And I'm hoping that the United States will follow suit, but it is a remarkably close race and this is, you know, one for the books. I think the first time a convicted felon is running for president 34 times convicted.

Karen McFarlane: 3:01

Correct, correct.

Brittany S. Hale: 3:03

This is the first time a mixed race black woman is running. Of course, shirley Chisholm ran for the president of the United States before, but yeah, so it's a lot of firsts happening and so, uh, you know, I've dabbled in politics in my life and so I said you know I'm just gonna go back to to doing phone banking and canvassing.

Brittany S. Hale: 3:28

and for those of you who are unfamiliar with phone banking, people who are registered voters will receive phone calls and you know talk to them about what's important to them, what they, what the pressing issues are for them, and you encourage them to vote. And if they have questions about ballots, you know voter registration where to go. You're provided with tools. It's actually really cool. So back in the day, back in my day, you had to go to a centralized location, but now there's technology that you can use so you can do it remotely right, because elections were still happening during the pandemic and we still wanted to engage people. So you can do it from the comfort of your home and you know, chat with folks. So I've I've done some screening calls, so I'm dying to hear what the content of some of those calls are of some of those calls are.

Brittany S. Hale: 4:37

I will say, when I first started my business and I, it was the first time that I really had to engage with sales and I listened to it. I want to. Maybe it was a Ted talk, but there was a. There was a guy who was describing how he got over his fear of rejection and he would make an ask, an incredible ask, of someone every day. So he would go into a store and maybe say hey, can I have my groceries for?

Brittany S. Hale: 5:04

free. Someone would say no, say hey, can I have this stamp for free? Most of the time people would say no and he would make these incredible asks so that he could prepare to be an incredible salesperson and learn how to deal with the nose so for anybody who's listening, who wants to get into sales. I recommend you do that, and or do some phone banking.

Karen McFarlane: 5:35

Okay banking.

Brittany S. Hale: 5:46

Okay. The level of vitriol that people feel comfortable having on the phone with a complete stranger is shocking to me.

Karen McFarlane: 5:51

Well, I know we're not getting into the content yet, but to their defense, you're calling them out the blue, I'm calling them.

Brittany S. Hale: 5:59

I introduce myself and be clear. You know why I'm calling and you know there are some people who are just happy to have a conversation and that's awesome. And sometimes you know they've turned it around and said you know, are you going to vote? Why are you going to vote? What's important to you? And you know I share a little bit about my story, but it's also it's a time for us to connect as humans, but also as Americans. Right, this is An effort to be patriotic, but but yeah, I get it.

Brittany S. Hale: 6:36

You know, sometimes it can be annoying if you think it's a telemarketer.

Karen McFarlane: 6:39

You know, but uh yeah, so tell me about one of the phone calls that was um interesting there was one woman who you know.

Brittany S. Hale: 6:52

She said I it's none of your gd business who I'm voting for. Okay, they said okay, that's completely fair. You know, I just want to make sure you have all the information about your respective voting polls and you know where to go on election day. And she just went on a tirade. You know, she was very clear. She looks at a lot of conspiracy posts on Facebook, but I had someone else say you know, I don't want to hear anything about Kamala Harris. She's completely unfit. I actually got you know someone saying that she was a DEI hire which I thought was interesting and I said oh wow, what does that mean to you, Right?

Brittany S. Hale: 7:49

What is a DEI hire? I haven't heard of that. I have not heard anyone in person speak about a presidential candidate being a DEI hire and being in one of the highest levels of elected office as a DEI hire. So I just said what does that look like she's absolutely not qualified. Oh, what are the qualifications?

Karen McFarlane: 8:24

I love that. I love that.

Brittany S. Hale: 8:28

You know me, I'm always going to lead with curiosity. It's entirely possible that people have access to facts and information that I do not. It just wasn't in this case. So, but I think you know I would love for media literacy to be a required course for people to take all throughout their formative years. I mean, you should start in elementary school, all the way through to high school, and it should be required in college as well in my opinion.

Karen McFarlane: 9:08

First of all, I am in wonderment that you could go through these phone calls I know you've probably done a ton of these phone calls and keep your composure with some of these people who are, you know, making wild claims like she's a DEI hire for them to kind of think, slow down and hopefully think about whatever stereotypes that they are, that they have towards Kamala Harris or even Donald Trump I mean either one right, sure, and I think that's really important to do, and again, kudos to you for doing that. That's really important to do, and again, kudos to you for doing that. I'm wondering. Well, I always wonder, I guess I always wonder. I'm always wondering what people are thinking when they're making these decisions, how informed they are, how much you know. They go out and they read and, like you say, how much, how literate are they in these topics? Right?

Karen McFarlane: 10:12

And this past week we heard President Obama talk about some of those preconceived notions that people have about Vice President Harris as a person of color and her record, and also speaking directly to particularly Black men about their preconceived notions. And there was some mixed reaction in the media on the news media and also in social media around that Some for it, some against it, right, and I thought that was first of all. I thought he was very, very brave in some sense, but it's President Obama, so he, in my view, has earned the right to speak directly to certain audiences. Right, he is a Black man speaking to a Black man about, you know, historical indifferences and things like that. And for me, as a Black woman, I was happy that he said what he said, because it needed to be said. People who raised up against it were of varying backgrounds, right, but I was paying more close attention to the Black men and women, right. What were your takeaways?

Brittany S. Hale: 11:44

from what he was saying for those who maybe hadn't seen it.

Karen McFarlane: 11:51

He basically was saying that, hey, black men, right. Basically, you need to put your trust into Vice President Harris right, as a Black woman, as a qualified Black woman, and remove these notions that Black women in general, right, aren't qualified. That's based on some historical nonsense. Go research and read about her record, because if you're standing on this concept that she does not support Black men and all she did was lock up Black men, go learn about what she really has done. Don't feed into the opposite narrative. And also, you need to vote for someone who is for you, not against you, and has proven that the other side, in his view, has demonstrated that they do not support Black men, black people in general, but particularly Black men and so if you stay home, you are voting for the other side. If you vote for the other side, obviously you're voting for the other side and you need to put your support in your people. That was my takeaway from it. What about you? Did you get a different take? You always have a different perspective.

Brittany S. Hale: 13:19

Yeah, so I he seemed more frustrated than I think I've ever seen him when it comes to public speaking. Of course, I think he's one of, if not the best orator we've had in our time, and I felt chastened when I was watching, right, I felt like, oh, you know, I'm glad that I'm not in trouble, but I he seemed to tease out what the underlying issue could be, which is misogyny, right, and it's that, you know, like you said, that question of asking people why they are not in favor of her and to truly, truly challenge that. And so we see so many calls for civility right now. I think that's the new buzzword for the end of 2024, into 2025.

Brittany S. Hale: 14:28

But I wish that it would be curiosity instead, because it's difficult to be civil with a lie. How do you civilly engage with lies, especially when they can do massive harm to large groups of people? I agree, but I wonder if you're able to be curious and, to your point, ask hey, where'd you get your information from? What's happening there? Did you know that this is the truth? Then it allows for you to kind of peel back these layers so that we can look nakedly at what's happening.

Karen McFarlane: 15:11

I agree, and I think we also have to all recognize people and talk about policy and demonstrate who she is and her personality, because that's the ground she has to make up so people can get to know her. And, just like I said to you, I give you kudos for having those conversations in the face of falsehoods, right, and trying to remain curious. She has to do that also right, with all of this vitriol that's happening around her, which you know could really just take up most of her time. Right, and do this amazing balancing act that the other side doesn't have to do. They're focused on one thing. It's interesting.

Karen McFarlane: 16:23

I was talking to a friend the other day, and she lives in North Carolina and she said you know, the ads that are coming out by Kamala Harris have gotten very aggressive over the past couple of weeks, straight out like attack ads, right, and she was bothered by that. Interesting. That is so interesting. I mean, I'm I'm not seeing them as much here in new york, you know, or, or there's a balance and I'm actually more comfortable, probably, with that right. Then, say, someone from the south who really leans more into that, into civility, right, in terms of the culture in general, right. And so, like I said, she was really bothered that this, this shift, had happened and I was like, wow, is that a cultural thing? One, two, is it really happening that their shift has to happen? And three, well, it probably has to happen because of, again, all the vitriol that has been spewed. So we don't recognize the deafness at which she and her team are operating and give her credit for that.

Brittany S. Hale: 17:51

She's still on par because it's very close, as you said, with the other side and that is crazy to women that she thought it was unseemly for her as a woman to be aggressive, or perceived as aggressive, versus her being assertive and truly not only defending herself, but speaking in furtherance of what her mission is going to be.

Karen McFarlane: 18:33

It's a great question and I did not ask her that, if I'm being honest, and I think I didn't ask her because I made an assumption about it, right, which is that it's rooted in part in gender and in part in race, right, because we've talked about that on many occasions. How you know, there's just a different behavioral way that Southern Blacks and particularly Southern female Black people operate because of the historical context. Female Black people operate because of the historical context, and I've also separately, you know, in talking to other people, I get labeled in some ways as I don't like to use the term aggressive because they don't mean it in that way, but I can't think of a better term right now but more aggressive by people from the South because I'm from the North, right, and that I might not be as well favored in the way that I operate.

Brittany S. Hale: 19:45

Yeah, yeah. There's a directness. That happens and there's. So it's really an amalgamation of things. Right, there's race, there's gender, there's age, right are like. You know it's about time she needs to, you know she needs of take the gloves off. There are others for whom that's not palatable, especially because they see all of the other aspects of her identity as negative, right and no matter where you are.

Karen McFarlane: 20:50

You know, being like taking the gloves off from a female perspective is not quote unquote normal right. It is seen as something other than when men do it. So she's battling all of these, you know, gender stereotypes and biases, right and again, on top of everything else, and not getting credit for that in a meaningful way, which bothers me to my core. And then, on the other hand, you have what I loved seeing was President Obama, as a Black male, advocating for her as a Black woman or mixed race woman and outlining the reasons why we should vote for her. That is not often something you see right, so when you see it, it's very powerful Right, right and Right. And we listen to Obama for the most part because he is our icon. And what also was super upsetting on the socials for me was the amount and level of disrespect given to President Obama for simply speaking his mind. Given to President Obama for simply speaking his mind. He was losing credit or credibility in certain people's eyes, despite the fact that he has made history in the history of this country as being the first Black president. And you still have people spewing. What did he do for the country? What did he do for Black people?

Karen McFarlane: 22:34

Well, go read first of all. Yeah, okay, let's just start there, read and interpret. Right? But if you're mad that he's saying this, that might require some self-reflection, right? But everyone here, no matter your race, creed, color, whatever, has an opportunity to make history. The fact of the matter is well, I was going to say okay, I'm still going to say it. The fact of the matter is either person can be president. One person was already. Despite their, in my view, unqualifications, either one can be president, either one is you know, and that's the case. One of them is going to be president. Yeah, regardless. Right, you have a moment to make history, not only for people of color, but for women, right? And so what is your?

Brittany S. Hale: 23:39

choice going to be. We've all known a woman.

Karen McFarlane: 23:41

We've all come from a woman, exactly. You can't live on this earth without women, right? So what is your choice going to be? Are you going to seize this moment to make history I was going to say all things being equal I don't believe all things are equal, but let's just say, in certain people's minds, all things are equal, right or are you just going to live with the status quo? You have to push yourself out of the comfort zone to enact change. So we're going to do what we have always done change. So we're going to do what we have always done, yeah. Or are we going to do something meaningful to this country and to people who have been historically underrepresented, and that's.

Karen McFarlane: 24:23

Let me just be clear when I say that, right, that is not being a DEI hire. Since we came up with that, since we came up with the term, that is not being it. Kamala Harris is well qualified, perhaps overqualified, for doing this job and she has shown, even in these last few months but she's vice president and she has a long historical career, right, but even in these last few months how she can pull people together, galvanize people, share her message and lead, and do that while doing her vice presidency job. Oh my gosh, we didn't even mention that. She's still vice president Right.

Brittany S. Hale: 25:14

And this is also a moment for us all to reflect and remember that being vice president does not mean that you get to usurp the power of the president. For those people who are saying, and what has she done? Why didn't she do all of these policies? You know she's been vice president for the past few years. It's just that is not how it works. You know, against schoolhouse rock. You know just basic civics lesson. But I have two questions for you.

Brittany S. Hale: 25:47

So first, you brought up something that I think is really important, which is there's a cost that comes with allyship and I think most people so. You know President Obama's credibility taking a hit because he's, you know, sticking his neck out for a candidate he believes in. And I, despite what we, what we profess, I think there's been a shift away from patriotism and this kind of collective interest into hyper individualism where someone would say, well, if it's not going to benefit him, then he shouldn't do anything. And I think a lot of us have this idea of oh, if I'm an ally, you know it may not go in my favor, but I would posit, there's a cost either way, and failing or opting out of being an ally in this instance doesn't guarantee your protection in the next. That's correct.

Brittany S. Hale: 26:56

You know, and I say that because I was having a conversation with a friend who is a black male and he said you know this election he himself, he does not identify as very political and my argument is your very existence, your ability to navigate this world, is, in and of itself, political. You have children. Yep, you have unambiguously black children. There are politics to your identity. There are politics to you know, nevertheless to your identity, their politics to you know, nevertheless. He mentioned and for those who are listening, who may not be Black, american or who may say, oh okay, maybe this conversation doesn't affect me Black people are not a monolith, they never have been. But he is experiencing fractures within his own family, right, because he has family members who are MAGA and, as bizarre as that is for me, it's largely due to rampant misinformation.

Brittany S. Hale: 28:10

And for someone like him who's like I'm not really political. You allow for that misinformation to spread and take root and take hold to the point where now you have these fissures and cracks in your family, to the point where you have to ask yourself, okay, well, now you have. What do you want the world to look like for your children? And is your family member not similarly invested in that future for your children? That's their family.

Karen McFarlane: 28:46

Right, that's an excellent point. I mean, when I I had this thought briefly, it was so brief, but it was a thought, I have to admit to it that, uh, when you know, with women reproductive rights on the line, my immediate thought was, thank goodness I have a son, Right. And then it was like Right.

Karen McFarlane: 29:23

And then I was like but it doesn't end there, right, because maybe one day he'll get married, right, and so. And then I have a goddaughter, and my goddaughter has a daughter, you know, and I have cousins that are female, like it. It doesn't just stop with my little nuclear family. And so, to your point right, we are in charge of the future and we can't just stand by on the sidelines and just focus on ourselves. Because even if you're focused on your family which is where people obviously will start it grows, right, it has a domino effect. It has an effect on your friends, right, it has a domino effect. It has an effect on your friends, right, and their families, right. So it doesn't actually ever end. And so we have to be future forward thinking and think about the collective. And, yeah, it's like you said, it's going to have an effect either way. So what side of history do you want to be on? You know, I am fearful. Just even. Let's focus on reproductive rights.

Karen McFarlane: 30:44

Like every time this topic comes up, my mind goes straight to the handmaid's tale. I don't know if everyone's watched that. Straight to the Handmaid's Tale. I don't know if everyone's watched that, but it's a very deeply disturbing. It's a book series and also I've watched a television series on Hulu about, basically, at the stroke of a pen for the new law. Right, women lost all their rights and it created this. What do you call it? This, I don't know the word, but this weird kind of misogynistic society, right, where women were, you know, reduced to childbears, servants and wives and subject to abuse, lost all of their ability to again own property or earn wages, et cetera, and it was based on a law that men enacted and it took place relatively overnight. Right.

Brittany S. Hale: 31:53

In reality kind of gradual because, if I remember correctly, she came into work and they needed her husband on her bank account something to that effect. And then she went to go get her birth control and her husband had to sign off and they thought this is odd, but okay, and she was very fortunate in that she had a husband right, who was completely like huh, this is odd but sure, right. And then her coming in and finding all the women had been laid off right right, it's crazy.

Karen McFarlane: 32:40

Yeah, you're right, it was gradual, but I don't know why I started watching it.

Brittany S. Hale: 32:44

No, but it was literally overnight, right like she goes in the next day and has no. That was it right you are no longer employed.

Karen McFarlane: 32:53

And then she was running for her life with her child, right. It was this new prison that she would be in, and it just it feels very modern day, right, and it feels like in some ways, it's happening Right, much more slowly than it happened in this television show, but still happening. And that's just one example, right, of how these laws are shaping our society and our personal freedoms and why we have to be active allies in it, right, day after day after day.

Brittany S. Hale: 33:35

You bring up a great point. Even just that sigh of relief to say thank goodness I have a son. But you also reflected on that thought. Many people do not. They just say, thank goodness, it's not a problem, the end. They're not thinking about their son's potential partner in life, you know, their wife or you know, whatever, they're not thinking past that point. They're thinking you know, I will run for shelter, run for a protector and that'll be enough.

Brittany S. Hale: 34:19

And that is again the cost of allyship, because for the people who are supposed to be the protectors to assume the responsibility, there's a cost there and there as well. I just saw an interview with vice presidential candidate Jamie Vance and he was discussing how his wife attends mass with him, even though she is Hindu and he is Catholic. And he said you know, she has three kids and he's Catholic.

Brittany S. Hale: 34:56

And he said you know, she has three kids and he's speaking conversationally, but it struck me because I said, no, you both me, right, you have three kids alongside. But he's just listing how uncomfortable it is for her and how challenging it is for her, and he's like her and he's like you know it's every sunday and you know she, she goes to mass and I mean you know she's got three kids and it was just like a very depersonalized response. That I thought was odd. But, um, but we're starting to ask different questions, which allows us to peek into the, to the marketing of this idyllic nuclear home. That's a fairly recent fantasy.

Karen McFarlane: 35:46

Yeah, right.

Brittany S. Hale: 35:50

This is a marketing push.

Karen McFarlane: 35:54

Well, look, I don't know anything about that, because they didn't show us as nuclear families. They still don't show us as nuclear families, fair. So that idyllic life, and that was tough yeah exactly. You had my little kids? Yeah, in more recent times, yeah, but they still like. There's this controversy right now with Heinz right that showed this Heinz UK that basically showed an ad with a Black bride and other white people at the table and her black mother, but no black father right, and so there's uproar about that and how that they, you know, again leaning into the stereotype of an absentee father.

Karen McFarlane: 36:45

And so, although we see some of these images on television and film, and there is, you know, an active push, there's still look, we're not all the same right there's still going to be remnants of these stereotypes as part of the lexicon of society. Even when and I have to be clear about that even when you have those groups involved, right, it doesn't mean that, hey, put some Black people on something and those stereotypes are going to go away, because they're so ingrained in our society that even we as the affected group might think them, but have to follow your rule of curiosity, right, and ask ourselves why do we think that and what can that lead to, positive or negative? So there's a lot of self-reflection that has to be done each and every time, which is work.

Brittany S. Hale: 37:53

It's work. It's a lot of work.

Karen McFarlane: 37:56

Yeah, but it can become more natural if you lean into having a growth mindset, right, which is all about curiosity. So you're always questioning things, you're always questioning yourself, right, and you're always wanting to learn how to be better. So at first it will be uncomfortable because it's not your natural position, but as you continue to do it, you build that discipline and it becomes natural over time.

Brittany S. Hale: 38:25

Yes, and if you need a selfish reason neuroplasticity right. Your ability to continue to develop new neural pathways and continue to learn helps you as you age. So for those listening, for whom you know allyship and patriotism and you know the collective common good is not enough. You can stave off mouth. You can stave off these deleterious effects of aging mentally by continuing to learn continuing to question.

Karen McFarlane: 39:06

I love that. I love that. I'm hoping that Mina learned some stuff from this too, right she?

Brittany S. Hale: 39:08

learned a lot. I thought she was sleeping but she's wide awake. Okay, Mina, we put you to sleep, Right? I was trying to kind of rock but she's like been staring at me Like I think the neuroplasticity was her addition to the show. I tried to take credit for it.

Karen McFarlane: 39:26

Awesome. Well, I always learn something from you, Brittany.

Brittany S. Hale: 39:32

So you're going to keep me ageless, okay. Absolutely. I mean, you have plenty of melanin to go around, so that's also going to help a whole lot Love it All.

Karen McFarlane: 39:44

right, until next time, see ya.