Karen McFarlane: 0:32

Hi Brittany, hi Karen, how are you? I'm good. Welcome everybody back to the E-Word.

Brittany S. Hale: 0:39

Yes, yes.

Karen McFarlane: 0:41

So a lot has been happening. Yes, In the Jewel.

Brittany S. Hale: 0:45

Mm-hmm.

Karen McFarlane: 0:48

That's what we live off of.

Brittany S. Hale: 0:49

The world is keeping us very busy, that's true, very busy.

Karen McFarlane: 0:53

So, okay, what's happening in the world today?

Brittany S. Hale: 0:55

I mean, there's so many different things, but I have one thing and then I'm going to hand it to you because I know you've been keeping a closer eye. So, as of today, we see that there are 88 CEOs. You know I'm always keeping an eye on things, all things leadership 88 CEOs have come out to endorse a presidential candidate, and these are CEOs from organizations like Starbucks I'm thinking I want to say maybe it was Lowe's, I don't want to misquote. Nevertheless, there's 88 of them and yeah, it's for Kamala Harris. So this is pretty unique. I would say I don't recall seeing something like this for previous election cycles. What are your thoughts, karen?

Karen McFarlane: 2:02

You know, it's always interesting when you see companies get involved in politics.

Karen McFarlane: 2:08

You know the why is usually it's because it's to protect their business in some in some meaningful way. Right, and when they came out for Kamala, it's sending a message that they believe Kamala is good for business, right, yeah, and I'm sure she is right from that corporate standpoint for lots of different reasons based on her policy. That corporate standpoint, for lots of different reasons based on her policy. I think she's also good for business in that representation piece, right, in terms of, you know, demonstrating that people of color, right, the crux of not the crux but an underpinning of DEI, right, that's the argument that we've had to make over and over again, that DEI is not just ethically, good, but it's also good for business.

Karen McFarlane: 3:03

I'm not calling Kamala a DEI candidate, so I just want to make sure that's clear because she is a well-rounded person that has lots of attributes and has proven herself on the business and political front for decades upon decades. But I don't want to ignore what that representation also means in and of itself, because we haven't seen something like this ever, right, yeah Well, the campaign rightly so does not talk about race and gender. That doesn't preclude me from talking about it.

Brittany S. Hale: 3:43

Sure, absolutely. And you know, I mean, I think, markets, like stability, right, and we see, if anything, how these leaders are perceiving the stakes in this election. And we've spoken about, ever since 2016, I think, we've had this discourse about the role of politics in the workplace, because we know that, on a micro scale, employees are engaging in these discussions and, as time's gone on, we've seen that organizations are increasingly asking, or audiences within organizations are increasingly asking, for leadership to take a stand on certain issues. And so then there comes the question of, you know, the role that we do, that politics has in leadership, the role that politics has in really in at work, at work, right.

Brittany S. Hale: 4:53

And we have the advent of corporate social responsibility and we see that corporations are now more than ever being asked to take a stand, being asked to be very vocal about where they stand, whether it's for a presidential candidate or whether it's supporting a specific initiative, and so to see 88 CEOs stand up and say, hey, we believe this person more closely aligns with what we stand for within this organization, what we stand for when it comes to financial performance, you know, and our ability to withstand whatever's happening in the economy at any given time, who we are putting our vote behind, and who we are, who we as leaders, are entrusting with the role of leadership you know, within the highest office in the United States, is pretty telling, but at the same time, we see that just as loudly as many of these CEOs are speaking about who they support politically, we also see there are many organizations and the choices that they're they're making when it comes to the initiatives that they're backing within their organization, and that's equally, if not more so, telling.

Brittany S. Hale: 6:31

So, let's, what do you? What are your thoughts about that? What can we tell viewers?

Karen McFarlane: 6:39

In that and I think the one thing that I want to stick on is that stability piece Mm-hmm. What we have seen in a past administration is that the constant instability of the political atmosphere caused a lot of uncertainty in the markets and people's jobs. Right, it just created this tension point. I remember in 45's presidency. I've never watched so much cable news in my entire life.

Brittany S. Hale: 7:20

Maybe not the best for your nervous system, but I understand.

Karen McFarlane: 7:25

Every single day from the moment.

Karen McFarlane: 7:28

I woke up and I don't even know if I probably missed most of primetime. It was insane because I needed to know what was going on and it was, in some ways, must see TV. You missed a day. You missed a lot, right? That's not what's supposed to happen in society, at least by my standards, right? The angst and the stress of what chaos is going to happen today? Right.

Karen McFarlane: 7:54

And so that stability and balance is really important for people to just be able to focus on what they need to do next, whether it's today, whether it's tomorrow, and if you're worried about, you know whether you're going to have health insurance or job security or all these different.

Karen McFarlane: 8:14

You know policies that are affected, that affect you as the average day to day, joe, and it's always up in the air and it's always chaos. You never feel stable in your day to day, and that doesn't allow a leader to take full advantage, right, of your talent and capabilities, because you're dealing with constant flux, and so it's really important for leaders to understand not only what their role is in their day-to-day jobs, but how they influence society. And so, when these 88 CEOs come out and they stand for something, I actually just wanted to just call out some of them so people understand that it's these big, meaningful companies, large companies, absolutely. The list includes Yelp Fox, ripple, former CEOs of Pepsi, lyft Ford, starbucks, as you said, James Murdoch, magic Johnson and so many more. So that's a really big statement to say hey look, we want stability. We want to be what VP Harris stands for when it comes to our people and society. Harris stands for when it comes to our people in society.

Brittany S. Hale: 9:36

And really interesting because she's been, she's been criticized for for not being specific about policy Right, and so I think that is in the face of that criticism, to see these leaders come out and say, hey, based on what I've heard, based on what's been represented, this is preferable to other options that we've been presented with. We're willing to, as so much of leadership requires. We're willing to trust Right, right, we're willing to trust that, even if we don't have the specifics, which, again, the policies, it seems to be detailed on the website. But if that's, you know, if people were looking for something more specific, knowing that these people, these leaders of these huge companies, are saying you what, we're good enough for us absolutely, and as leaders we know that we don't always have all the answers right now, right away, like, in many ways, does it make sense?

Karen McFarlane: 10:53

I mean, I I know she is the VP right now and so she should. She probably has a lot of the answers, but not all of them right. But would it make sense for someone, before they have a job, before they've dug into it, to have made all the decisions beforehand?

Brittany S. Hale: 11:07

Not at all. In fact it's, it's the. To come into a job and say, okay, I know, I've seen it all, I know it, all you know, and not have any sort of curiosity would be something that we would not respect. And so I think this is another example where we see we're not so much focused on the accuracy for this moment, we're focused on the decisiveness. What are the broad commitments that we can trust in? And I think that is really interesting and also a lesson for people who are currently in leadership or aspiring to it, especially women. Women very often undervalue their capabilities, because if I'm not 100% correct, I don't want to put myself in the position to be wrong. People need to know that you can make a decision and trust that you can be agile enough to respond to whatever comes your way after that decision's made.

Karen McFarlane: 12:20

Exactly, and what I love about what's happening also is the fact that, as a woman, right, she is being trusted to do that and that's a big thing because so, all right, on um, the night of the dnc, when she was accepting her nomination, right, she was giving her speech and you know, she was talking about herself and all the things that she was going to do and it was in a very good way, but it was very bravado, it was very, it was very much in a way that we normally don't see women speak, particularly black women, and I have to be honest, I was like, right, it's a little jarring for me and I was like why are you jarring?

Karen McFarlane: 13:13

you would not be. I'd have a conversation with myself.

Brittany S. Hale: 13:16

All right.

Karen McFarlane: 13:17

Just check yourself, Right yeah absolutely.

Karen McFarlane: 13:23

Like you, would you be jarred if it were a man? You expect that of a man. And so sit in this moment and enjoy that moment, because she is talking about herself, her accomplishments, what she will do for this country with vigor, with grace, right and with confidence. That's something that you, you, karen, like I'm talking, I'm talking to myself, right, as you do, right you feel uncomfortable with sometimes. That's my problem, and so don't project that on to her. And I had to have that quick conversation with myself so I can be in that moment and I and I can accept it and, um, that's something I think that we all, we don't see that as often and that's why I think I was like oh, you know what that's called, carrie?

Brittany S. Hale: 14:15

What is it? Tall poppy syndrome have you heard of it? No, what is that? Quick digression, and then we're back because there are a few companies that we need to point out.

Brittany S. Hale: 14:28

So tall poppy syndrome it tends to be experienced by women in leadership, like yourself.

Brittany S. Hale: 14:35

It tends to be experienced by women in leadership, like yourself, but it's a space where you have had the experience of being belittled, mocked and or ridiculed for being a highly confident and or high achieving person.

Brittany S. Hale: 15:02

And so, with tall poppy syndrome, you're you're a tall poppy and therefore you become a point of attraction for being systemically cut down. And so many tall poppies internalize that as a form of self-protection, because they have the experience of having their, because they have the experience of having someone else taking credit for their work, other people having left them out purposely, having been ignored, having been told they were too much, having been passed over for promotions, because their success is perceived as a threat. And especially for women, because we aren't accustomed to women being in leadership and, most importantly, being confident in that leadership right when we tend to value humility and the pursuit of likability, above all, women. So when we see her doing that, we're, like you know, a friend of mine has a phrase. You know, I think that person likes themselves a bit too much and so, because you're a self-actualized person, you took that as a moment to reflect and go within and say, oh, why am I uncomfortable with that?

Brittany S. Hale: 16:25

Whereas a lot of other people would see that display of confidence and say I don't like that. Yeah, I'm sure.

Karen McFarlane: 16:30

I don't like it. That tall poppy's got to be cut down. See, I always learn something, and so in in Jamaica we would say them chest high okay.

Brittany S. Hale: 16:44

I thought that was um what is it? Big up yourself, but okay, I like it and chest high okay just high, just high, your whole personal life.

Karen McFarlane: 16:55

You're a body language with it, but that's all right, See, I'm learning as well.

Brittany S. Hale: 16:59

Anyone listening, watching you see what happens when you tune into the E-word.

Karen McFarlane: 17:07

But no, that's crazy, that it's a syndrome, right, I'm sure a lot of people felt that that way, you know, and hopefully they they turned it in on themselves and they hopefully did what I did. But the other point and we want to go into another thing is that you know, um, yeah, she's been being asked to explain herself and prove her points when the other candidate is not doing so, right, unchecked that it is not doing so, right, unchecked, unchecked, talking, pure foolishness.

Karen McFarlane: 17:37

all right, completely, but it's okay. Again, that's the disparity that we just need to recognize, right and uplift. You know, point out and uplift. When we see those types of things, we have to call it out. So these are just the challenges that we, as Black women, go through on a regular basis and, of course, when we call it out, then that's a problem.

Karen McFarlane: 18:07

But, we still need to do so, that these CEOs are using their power and their privilege right to endorse this candidate and work in the best interest of, of course, my view, work in the best interest of society and their own workforce, and knowing that, likely, in order to do so, they're being backed by their boards, right?

Brittany S. Hale: 18:37

So it's not just them, it's, you know. You have key stakeholders, the people who we may never see, you know, unless we're looking at a perspective, knowing that they too have put their support behind the CEO to be the voice and to speak on behalf of their interests as well. Exact opposite not in endorsing a candidate, but in rolling back their articulated commitment to creating inclusive environments, to committing to developing equity within their organization and inviting diverse talent into their organizations. So I was just looking at my phone. You sent me something about Lowe's, but you sent me a few, and it's upsetting, it's very upsetting. Harley Davidson Lowe's Tractor.

Karen McFarlane: 19:57

Supply. And then, most recently, moore's right. Moore's, what's it called? Oh my gosh, I just totally blanked. Coors Light, coors Light, sorry, yep, yep. And okay, here's the thing. You could not have been truly committed to it in the first place to be able to so easily roll it back. That's just my first assertion. It was one of those things that probably need to go do a little deep dive on that, but, in my view, right, something that is embedded within your organization you just can't cut off. And it's really interesting that all of these companies are also pulling back. Who have perfect scores on the human power index are pulling away from this benchmark as well, and I wish I was an investigative journalist at this point I pull up a magnifying glass.

Karen McFarlane: 21:00

Yeah, totally. I started to re-watch the newsroom that hbo show for it was jeff daniels a long time ago. No one's seen it. You should, if you watch it, watch it again. It's just as relevant and the fervor and uh rigor that these journalists went into to like uncover what was below the surface. And that's I wish I was, because it feels really odd that all of them are pulling back their dei practices and also moving away from the human equality index and in the Human Equality Index and it's not clear why Companies like Coors Light are like, well, we're still going to sort of practice it right, but basically not out loud, like it's not going to be called the EI, similar to.

Brittany S. Hale: 21:48

Zoom, where they said it's going to be in their DNA, but they'll just fire everyone who had anything to do with it.

Karen McFarlane: 21:55

It's like that, you know, it's just, it's just really icky and it's like, okay, well, what is that saying to your workforce? What's that saying to people with different identities about how they're going to be treated in your organization? How?

Brittany S. Hale: 22:14

they're going to be treated in your organization. So I'm going to ask a question, kind of a marketing question, but I'll borrow from you. Know I don't want to say playing the devil's advocate because it's so overused, but if I were arguing in defense of them, if I look at in defense of them, if I look at a Harley Davidson, for example, davidson Davidson, excuse me nevertheless if I say well, from a marketing perspective, our target demographic is not in favor of these initiatives. So we are moving at a pace of which you know. We're trying to give our consumers what they want. What would your response to that be?

Karen McFarlane: 23:19

First, I would have to ask the definition of what DEI is, because that feels like code for certain groups of people, right, but that would be number one. But I just really find it hard to believe and I don't care what the demographic is Right that people are in favor of being included in the conversation, right Of having the opportunity to purchase a motorcycle, right With this fantastic brand associated with it. I would ask questions about what their growth plans are.

Karen McFarlane: 23:55

Do your growth plans include people with other identities? Right, because if it does it, then you'll probably fade away at some point in time. Because our society is what you put women and people of color together. That's the majority, right. And so are you saying you just want this niche and that niche. That may be fine for you, but I'd have questions about where you thought your future is going to be, who you thought your demographic was and how well you really know that demographic, right? So I don't know the demographic for Harley Davidson. I'm going to make an assumption from the movies that I have seen. So this is very.

Brittany S. Hale: 24:42

I've watched Sons of Anarchy.

Karen McFarlane: 24:48

But I probably, I primarily see white males, like rural white males on Harley Davidson Right, and there's a lot of them. Ok, so I might be fine, but wouldn't it be great to see rural white females Right? Wouldn't it be great to see city chicks right riding your bicycle all over Manhattan or Boston or whatever Right Like? Wouldn't it be great to see other identities? But are they going to do it?

Karen McFarlane: 25:18

Or maybe, maybe the brand is strong enough to not have to, and maybe that's the calculation that they made, because they built this brand so deeply over time that it defies how you speak specifically to any audience whatsoever. I don't know enough about it, but these are questions.

Brittany S. Hale: 25:41

Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking, you know how. How often are you buying a motorcycle? You know, is this a once every 10 years purchase? Is this once every five years? You know, can you lease, et cetera.

Brittany S. Hale: 25:55

But all great questions and I think this also goes to the heart for anyone who's watching that's a consultant. This is part and parcel of why I will say for myself, as a consultant, I've refused certain types of work because it was not their DEI initiatives were not. The goal was not to have them become an integral part of the organization and the way that finance or marketing or you know IT would be, which is I need, or people operations right, this has you have to have a foundational understanding of this in order in the bedrock of the organization, right, it's not just this ornamental part that you can peel away at will, it has to be embedded in the bedrock. And the thing I've said a 60 minute training is not a silver bullet. It's not going to save you.

Brittany S. Hale: 27:21

No, to say, oh, diversity is inviting everybody to the party and you know, inclusion is inviting them to the dance floor has no practical application to or meaning for the day-to-day operations within an organization, and that is a severe part of why there's been, while you know, there've been tons of DEI consultants and I'm not coming at all of them, but a lot of it. You know, I look at with a critical eye because I say what is the point? What is the point of that metaphor? How does that metaphor impact hiring? How does it impact performance reviews? How does it impact? You know, what are your? How do you do your talent assessments? What's your strategic plan look like? What's your board makeup? Don't talk to me about a party, but you know and I say that somewhat tongue in cheek because we've all heard that and we've walked out some people have felt really yummy and hopeful, some people have felt resentful and excluded and and that's why we're here today- that's so true.

Karen McFarlane: 28:50

That is so true Like I have the same sentiment like these again. You know I'm not saying DEI trainings aren't important. I do believe they're important, but there's a different way to do that. You can't stick people in a room and say, hey, you need to start thinking this way. That doesn't work. People, the best, best dei, in my view, is probably the most unsustainable one, which is connection to people. Right, you have to get people talking and understanding life experiences, and that's tapping into the emotion. Right, that's associated with an individual to get them to open their eyes. But, like this one and done training, if there's no tactile element to it, right, it doesn't stick and it can feel resentful. Then you get. So. Molson Coors said also said is developing the next evolution of its company trainings, which will focus on key business objectives instead of its previously DEI-based training programs that the company said all current US employees have already participated in. That last part is like they already did it. It was a one and a half.

Brittany S. Hale: 30:00

I already know everything that I need to know about DEI, which is, of course, as we know, something that's constantly evolving to match the demands of the market, and I would say, these people who are facilitating these trainings if you don't have a grounding in adult learning, I would say, if you've never taught a class, if you've never tried a case, if you don't understand how adults receive, retain and interact with information, it's pointless 100% and most people at least the way I approach this stuff right is they care about their day-to-day, right.

Karen McFarlane: 30:43

Right, my focus is more on how do you make small shifts to your day-to-day and I live in the world of marketing, right? So how do you make small shifts in your marketing practices day-to-day, not adding to your work? Well, in some cases it might be a little bit, but I'm not trying to transform one big transformation. It's just small mindset shifts that you may have to think about eventually, you know in the beginning, but when you add it to your daily workflow, it's not something that you have to put major effort against, depending on what the situation becomes part of your daily practice and you're training yourself to think differently over time. Because, look, I think the ultimate goal, grand goal, would be for DEI not to have to exist, right, and so if companies can get authentically get to that place right, then that would be an incredible thing.

Karen McFarlane: 31:52

I don't think that will ever happen because there's so many different ways to slice this and we're a very biased society. Well, it'll be required in some way, some awareness needs to be required in some way. But, like if you're a new company starting, for example, starting with DEI in mind is the way to maybe not need it later on. I'm thinking specifically of, say, fenty Rihanna's Fenty Yep. That was built on the idea of inclusiveness. Now DEI has gone away for that. It is the focal point of this amazing brand that is meant to include everyone, and this is why it's gotten so big and so fast, and it will be sustainable.

Brittany S. Hale: 32:44

Because you started with 40 plus skin tones, right Shades for all skin types. You don't have to do this pivot, dedicate resources to expand, because the marketing team, I would assume, looked around and said, okay, we have, we've creators who've built whole audiences behind the fact that they just try the darkest makeup shade and just highlight how much of a need there is in the industry. Yeah, exactly, there was this um yeah, exactly there is this um shoot I'm gonna I think I'm gonna call it roads, roads, lust or something.

Karen McFarlane: 33:36

Yeah, road, roads. You heard that story. Yeah, to make their palette, and a darker creator criticize them because when she put it on it looked very ashy. That you know. But what they did do, which you have to commend them for is, is all right. They made a mistake or wasn't inclusive, right, didn't think about that and reached out to her to have her collaborate on what that might look like, and probably others. I'm sure there's more than just that and then used her in the campaign.

Karen McFarlane: 34:10

So they used her ideas but, also leveraged her for the campaign and I'm sure it compensated.

Brittany S. Hale: 34:16

And borrowed her audience. That was loyal to her. So now, by transitive properties, they are now loyal to you, right? And you have other instances of other makeup brands. I can't remember the brand now, but a similar creator very heavily melanated, criticized them and they released a foundation that essentially was akin to black paint. Oh my, gosh. No thought, no care and more focus on being defensive and the collective ego than to be curious and engage and see that this is an opportunity. It's not just a criticism. This is an opportunity for you to grow.

Karen McFarlane: 35:15

You can also make makeup for non-melanated people Like I'm. I'm also in that camp because there's now makeup for melanated people, absolutely Right, that's fine, you know, but like, don't try and don't do it right.

Brittany S. Hale: 35:28

Correct. Don't just if if you're throwing out something, you say here, you know like don't, that's not necessary. But be clear and understand, and I think this is a challenge and I'm curious to know what you think. From a marketing perspective perspective, it seems like certain brands, especially in an influencer economy, aren't confident enough in their strategy that they feel comfortable saying well, that's just not what we do.

Karen McFarlane: 36:03

I think that's it. It's a tough time to say that I don't think they can time to say that I think they can Look. You as a company, have to have a vision of where you want to go, and you got to stand on business.

Brittany S. Hale: 36:22

Period and say no to everything that isn't bad.

Karen McFarlane: 36:25

Exactly, it's like they're like no, these bikes are for this particular demographic. If other people buy that cool but we're not investing in that, that's their, that's their privilege to do so no one's forcing them to do that right and lean in to what that means.

Karen McFarlane: 36:45

You cannot pretend to be for everybody and don't be for everybody, right um, serve your niche and serve it well there are other competitors that are going to pop up and you know, and you be prepared for backlash, just like you're prepared for praise, right, somebody's gonna love you, somebody's not. You know what is that gonna look like to you, but have your values, have, have your response ready. Know that you're gonna get some pushback and deal with it accordingly you know, I'm gonna be extreme for a second.

Karen McFarlane: 37:23

If you have how, um, if you're exclusively making makeup for albino skin tones and a creator, a very male-led creator, is like well, what about me? Right? You'd be like well, you've got this, this, this, this, this, this and this we're focused on this. We're about empowering this particular group that doesn't get much attention, and so there's something else.

Brittany S. Hale: 37:55

Stand on your business. I love that and bringing it back to these DEI initiatives. Stand on your business, because if you were committed, then why are you not committed now? What's changed? Because at some point, either you were never committed and you wanted to hop on a train, which means that you're inauthentic, which means that the trust is eroded in some way, or now something shifted for you within the environment, and I think it's important to be very clear about what that is, because if it's, we're scared of lawsuits and so we don't want to draw any particular attention.

Brittany S. Hale: 38:46

By not naming it, you're giving it power, right. By not naming it, you're giving it power, right. You're giving the Edward Blum's of the world power, because you're not outright naming the strategy Instead of saying you know it's an ineffective use of our resources to have to fight these baseless claims and, in so doing, to have to fight these baseless claims and in so doing, we found that it was easier to roll these things back or to say we have to redirect resources to prepare for these baseless claims, because this is what's happening.

Karen McFarlane: 39:22

I agree with you. If you're scared, stay scared, but do something about it, right. Like I'm scared of really tall heights. I'm not doing it, I'm scared, right. So what I would love to see leaders do do, though. So, yes, you're scared, say you're scared, if you know. If you don't have the resources, you don't have the resources, right. Those are business decisions that you have to make, but, but there's another business decision I think leaders can make is understand again your privilege and power as a corporation, and you can fight the Edward Blums and the Robbie Starbucks of the world, which is the other contender, correct, the I rollback program or the AI rollback programs, and because these are, at the end of the day, these are just two men. Obviously, they have their backings, but two men and if these 88 CEOs, for example, got together and was like, yeah're gonna come together in some sort of initiative lawsuit?

Brittany S. Hale: 40:35

whatever it is, I don't know how that works.

Karen McFarlane: 40:40

imagine what you could do to protect the workforce Right. It's always better to do things together.

Brittany S. Hale: 40:53

Yes, right.

Karen McFarlane: 40:56

And you know, obviously I would want these individual corporations who are making tons and tons of money. I know smaller ones. It's more difficult to dedicate resources to fighting the good fight and get in some good trouble, right. So that's what I invite them to do, and whether they want to do it on their own or come together as a planet, you don't have to bow down. In fact, leadership is about finding a way. It is also about knowing when to stand down, don't get me wrong. Yes, but I think that's only after you explore the place. Yes, yeah, yeah, so we'll see. We will.

Karen McFarlane: 41:40

And who drops next? Okay, because it's going to be like an ongoing trend, but we'll be talking about you.

Brittany S. Hale: 41:48

That's all I know. We will, we will, we see you, we see you. I will not be having a Coors Light and the next time that I have home improvement needs I will not be going to Lowe's.

Karen McFarlane: 42:03

I don't think you can go to Home Depot either.

Brittany S. Hale: 42:05

We're in trouble okay, um listen, I I will do the work to find the the lone mom and pop shop that's out there somewhere. They're there eking it out, they're totally there oh wow.

Karen McFarlane: 42:23

Well, until the next time somebody does something that we need to talk about on eWord, I'll see ya see, ya later bye.