Brittany S. Hale: 0:31

What's the E-Word? It's the E in DEI that everyone ignores, but we're here to bring it to the forefront. Welcome to the E-Word.

Karen McFarlane: 1:03

Hi Brittany.

Brittany S. Hale: 1:05

Hi Karen, How's it going?

Karen McFarlane: 1:09

It's not so great. I had a little tumble and I broke many parts of my foot, but I am pressing on the best way I can. So life will be a little different for me, but it'll provide me new perspective, especially from an perspective, so I'll be updating you on a regular basis, please do.

Brittany S. Hale: 1:35

Please do. I'm really really sorry to hear that. Not at all fun.

Karen McFarlane: 1:42

Not at all fun. So I have been nursing this thing for a little while because I spent some time in the hospital, but so I've missed out on a lot of different things happening in the world. Yes, so I'm going to rely on you to tap me in what's going on.

Brittany S. Hale: 2:04

No pressure, my mind is running a mile a minute, but I'll condense it to two things, okay. First thing we'll start with is a tale of two Americas.

Karen McFarlane: 2:23

Okay, this sounds good.

Brittany S. Hale: 2:28

So we're wrapping up. We just had the final day of the DNC. The Democratic National Convention happened a few weeks after the RNC, the Republican National Convention, immediately after former President Trump's interaction with the shooter and the injury, and I thought about the groundswell of support that would happen for him and I anticipated a super galvanized, super, you know, ready to go base. And that's when he announced his vice presidential nominee, jd Vance, who's had a rough go of it in the culture. And then we had the DNC, and the RNC wasn't as galvanized. It wasn't as I mean, we had Hulk Hogan and Kid Rock, but it wasn't the exuberance that I would have expected given the events immediately prior.

Brittany S. Hale: 4:03

Right, right, that's true, that's true. And we made it clear JD Vance and his platform made it clear of the tale of an America that was almost nostalgic and longing for a sense of what once was, which seems to be this Like a very clear grounding in traditional values, where women occupy a very restricted space within society, most notably in the home, where their primary purpose is to be mothers and wives, and support systems for men, where people didn't really have to interact with, engage with or think about Others who may be different than them and, more to the point, finding some connection, some points of connectivity between them and people who are different than them.

Karen McFarlane: 5:25

Fair, fair points.

Brittany S. Hale: 5:28

And then we have the DMC, which both, I think, were star-studded events, different types of stars, and we had VP Kamala Harris. We knew that she was a presumptive nominee well before the DNC. She accepted the official nomination during the DNC. But we also got her choice Governor Tim Walz, coach Walz, coach Walz, america's dad, and we've gotten to know the Wals family over the past few weeks.

Brittany S. Hale: 6:19

More recently, we saw his son, gus. We've seen clips of him getting up and crying and applauding and, you know, saying to other people that's my dad which has been received, like these two conventions, two different ways, by two different groups. We saw a lot of people, especially parents, sharing their pride and excitement over you know how it would feel to have their child do that or, um, people without children, just saying that it was a really heartwarming, touching moment parents of children who are newer, neurodiverse, because we know that gus has grown up as a neurodiverse child and the the walls family has been a system of support for him Right. And then we got at least one, and I think my algorithm is pretty well curated, but I still saw a lot of criticism about his display of emotion.

Karen McFarlane: 7:34

Ann Coulter was one. Yes, called it weird. I think Weird. Yes, ann Coulter was one.

Brittany S. Hale: 7:36

yes, weird, yes, and weird's been one of those words that's been used to describe the Republican nominees and some of the things that they've said or done. But yes, ann Coulter mentioned that Gus's excitement was weird. His expression of emotion was weird and really interesting, given that Ann Coulter seems to be within that cohort of women that JD Vance would be highly critical of women who are without children and without a husband, but nevertheless, it has been such an interesting ride.

Karen McFarlane: 8:30

I love how you put the tale of two cities right. So you know, I kind of fashioned that book as one is. Fear and hope, right, and those two emotions, I guess, are driving parties in different directions. Now, I didn't watch the RNC, I was not driven to watch the RNC, so I'll just, I'll just qualify that. But you know, I kind of I understand don't kill me now like I understand that the RNC group is more inclined to focus on what was, because what was has been ingrained in our history for centuries. Right, it's hard, change is hard, change is hard.

Karen McFarlane: 9:21

Certain groups in particular, who have been at the top of the food chain for centuries, right to want to give up that seat or share that seat with any other groups, and so they're essentially fighting for their lives. I feel right, by embracing this message of fear, that something's going to be taken away from them. Right, that we need to limit and marginalize groups, particularly their own, women, who have been essentially in some form property right for centuries and centuries. And really this liberation of women and people of color and different identities in many different ways is more recent, right, so I understand where that comes from. Unfortunately, we live in an America that doesn't really believe all of that, even the people on that side, right, they don't really want limitations on themselves, they want it in other people. They don't just realize that, correct, you create the limitations and it can include yourself, but they other those limitations and don't realize it's having a global effect. But then, you know, democrats have this message of hope and joy, which is yielding a completely different type of emotion and effect. And when we think about leadership in general, what we want to do is inspire and motivate people around a common cause that they can believe in. Right, that feels good.

Karen McFarlane: 11:18

Ruling by fear, I think we have proven. Okay, look, that may get the job done, all right, but it doesn't yield things, like you know employee enthusiasm, retention, right, all the key metrics that create longer term success. And so when I look at these two leaders one that wants to rule by fear and power and one that wants to rule by rule not even rule, it's not even the word when we talk about the other group, right. So one that wants to rule Ostensibly and one that wants to lead with hope and joy. Right and optimism, and at least the messaging is around a future for all, not just for some.

Karen McFarlane: 12:09

Then you can galvanize people around a broader message and get everyone to work together to make that happen, instead of having the rule by um, you know, fear and power, which means only a small group of people are going to work on it and other people are going to going to like resist. You're constantly having this resistance right from the groups that don't want something like that. So that's kind of what I see, the same thing as you do, and I just see it in that layer as well, and we think about which one do we want to be, what do we think is more effective, as we want, as we look, as we try to grow towards success in whatever that means for you know, you as a leader in your organization, in your life, personally, whatever.

Brittany S. Hale: 12:56

I love that you you're putting it within the context of organizations, because it's exactly right. And the point that you made about power is a good one, and I would. I would actually say that when we think about power, especially as women, we tend to have a negative connotation around it, right, a negative relationship to it. And what we have to remember is that power is exercised, it's not acquired. Very rarely is the king going to say I don't want to be king anymore. Here you go.

Brittany S. Hale: 13:32

Right, we see, with the events of january 6th, that, um, there was not going to be an easy situation of of this relinquishing power. And so if we remember that power is exercised and it's not acquired, then the next, next question is well, who has it and what kind of power do they have? And for one side, we have this bully pulpit Perfect example of coercive power. I'm going to tell you what to do. Rule of thumb I'm going to force my way in, I'm going to force you to do what I want you to do, and who cares if you don't like it? Right? And we see a whole lot of that in leadership, right, we have leaders who may not conceive of themselves as dipping into that coercive power. But we see with the fluctuations in the economy come the return back to a lot of these coercive practices.

Brittany S. Hale: 14:48

Because there's a belief that people have no other choice. You have to come back into the office and you have to do what I say, because you want to survive, don't you?

Karen McFarlane: 14:58

Mm-hmm.

Brittany S. Hale: 15:01

And what an uninspiring way of leading that lacks so much creativity, in a time where creativity and innovation are the drivers of so many industries. You then have on the other side, when you're talking about joy and hope, we also have this other type of power that's being employed, right, this power that's being exercised where you're creating opportunities for all and what does that look like and meaningfully engaging with people from all walks of life to explore pathways to innovation, pathways to collaboration, pathways to to growth, which, ostensibly, is the the goal of at least one of the goals of each of these groups. And so you see more of a referent power, right, and bringing folks along. Ok, well, we want, we want tech innovators. Okay, so we're going to have tech innovators come in and lend their knowledge. We want women and we want them to come in, and we want Black people and we want them to come in, and we want Muslims and we want them to come.

Brittany S. Hale: 16:38

You see, and it's so, there is this power that's being exercised, but it looks very different leaders and the practices that they engage in to inspire, to motivate and to forge trust. Right, because that's essentially what it is. You have to build trust. Your responsibility as a leader, as a preeminent leader, which would be the CEO, is, of course, keeping making sure the organization continues to to grow and be profitable and inspire trust, inspire people, the best talent to come and further your vision, further the mission of the organization. How are we going to get there? How can I contribute? Right, yep.

Karen McFarlane: 17:30

And some is the superpower. Yes, because trust means you don't have to rely on coercive power, correct, right? Um, because you know you could fall into that. You have to make decisions, you have to make people do things. You have to put parameters and guidelines, because if you don't say, listen, I have to come, you have to come to the office, people might not come to the office, right, so some of that, I think still, you know, used wisely. But that's so important. To trust the superpower, because that means all the things that you set out to do. People believe in you as a leader and even if they don't have the full picture, they know that you are leading them in the right direction.

Karen McFarlane: 18:20

Right you don't need to be privy to every decision, agree with every decision, right. They just need to know that this person knows what they're doing. They're going to take care of the company, they're going to take care of me. They believe in me and I'm going to just go with the flow in that respect and support their vision.

Brittany S. Hale: 18:42

Right and it's reciprocal right. So, just as I trust that, even though I'm not privy to every conversation with the board, even though I'm not privy to to the budget, I trust that if I put forth my best efforts, there are pathways for me to grow and innovate and I'll be well compensated for the work that I'm doing here. Trust that people in certain roles are employing the best decision making frameworks To keep this going in perpetuity.

Brittany S. Hale: 19:17

Similarly, leaders have to trust that if I create the right environment, that people are going to contribute their best talent. So, even if they are not working within a brick and mortar, I can trust that if I provide them with the equipment, if I provide them with clear goals, if I provide them with an objective and a roadmap for where we're going, for where we're going, they're going to deliver. And what we're seeing exposed, both in the political realm and within the realm of work, is there's a severe lack of trust because, with the recension of these work from home policies is the underlying assumption that people aren't getting work done and that I need to need to hover right, right, I need to look over your shoulder to make sure that your butts are in the seat in order for me to accomplish my goals, and you know my, my, my theory is that does not a great leader make. If that's what you have to do, yeah.

Karen McFarlane: 20:32

And if you feel like working from home is a hindrance, use data to support that and share that. Be transparent with what the data is Correct. People understand that. This is why you're making this particular decision Right and they can affect a different outcome by making certain improvements to their output Right. Give them a stake in the game. Don't just take options away just because of your own belief system and your need to hover Right. Like you said, not for a good leader.

Brittany S. Hale: 21:10

And be clear about the benchmarks for success. The success isn't I don't necessarily need to know that you're you're working and that you're an impactful employee or, uh, you're contributing value because you respond to my email 30 seconds after you received it. Right, there are other ways to communicate. What being a good employee looks like, what contributing value looks like, you know, because you can respond to me super quickly and we can go through many iterations for me to get to that solution. I'd much rather you take a little bit of time, think about it and then come back. That's something I can use.

Karen McFarlane: 22:00

Exactly, you know exactly. I know that there's different cultures and different ways to do that. I'm a person that wants to answer all the questions I possibly can, so you don't have to come back to me. Let me just be thorough.

Brittany S. Hale: 22:14

Exactly, exactly yeah.

Karen McFarlane: 22:16

You're not talking to me. I'm not mad. I feel like I've answered, I've given you all you needed. But you know that's different. Different people are different. I totally get that. You know.

Karen McFarlane: 22:26

One thing that also struck me about the DNC last night well, the past few nights, um, but particularly I think it was last night, um, we saw this throughout the whole night, but when Kamala's three like her two nieces, her nieces, two nieces and goddaughter were standing up there and the whole event was very diverse. Right, in terms of the things that we could see. Correct and what, as a leader, right, you have to have representation that shows people that they belong in that environment, and I'm saying shows right, you have to demonstrate it. People need to see it in some way. Right, and what we saw throughout the four nights. Right was an acceptance of various identities and stories and experiences. Right, that wrapped around a central theme of really belonging. Right, correct, and it was demonstrated over and over again. Right, and that consistency spoke volumes. There was no quote, unquote, tokenism in that it was the party of everybody.

Brittany S. Hale: 24:03

Right and we believed it Right. So we believe, and I think that that belief goes back to the trust which goes back to that authenticity. But when you, you have someone standing there on a national stage and speaking about the intense trauma of being abused by parents Right, and I'm paraphrasing the phrase, but you know, you shouldn't be a child carrying your parents, child, that's not a perfect, that is not demonstrative of a perfect environment, right, a perfect America, that's not something that we should ever have to deal with. But knowing that, if and when these situations arise, we have leaders who are prepared to contend with and are thinking about ways to contend with these situations, I thought it was really, really powerful, because it wasn't all just about feeling good. It was about feeling, feeling right and being able to in that joy. Part of that joy is knowing that difficult situations are going to arise, there's going to be moments of discomfort, horror, awe, and the joy is in knowing that we're navigating it together.

Karen McFarlane: 25:34

Yeah, and that we're going to navigate it and not ignore it Right? Yes, and we're going to try to do so so that as many people as possible come through this situation in a positive way.

Karen McFarlane: 25:49

We know not everybody is because that's just life, right, right, but that's the intent, right, and we'll work towards that intent. And I think what happened also with the dnc is because that was demonstrated and proven night after night after night. When Kamala finally got up to close out the convention and talk about her vision of the future, a lot of the work had already been done correct you know, yes she said the words and she told her story, told about her background and said her truth.

Karen McFarlane: 26:27

told about her background and said her truth. We came out of it like, oh my God, yeah, you know, we totally get this. And one thing that struck me that I felt much akin to her in this way is that the obviously there's a lot of talk about can she, is she ready, Can she do the job Right and job. And we can sit there and say, oh, obviously she was ready. She was vice president, she was ready at any moment and every time, but people didn't know much about her. She obviously sat down and did the work and did what she had to do, which is really what a lot of women, in particular women of color, do.

Karen McFarlane: 27:08

We sit down and do the hard work and we don't get accolades for it. We don't get acknowledged for it.

Karen McFarlane: 27:14

I'm very much like that as well, but one of the things that struck me is that she is a natural leader and that talent has to be recognized, Like, yes, she can sit down and do the work, but she's really going to shine in a leadership role. Correct and just personally, I am so much better in a leadership role than in a support role. I can support you. You will never see exactly what I'm capable of in a support role. You will fully see my capabilities when I'm in a leadership role and you will always be surprised because you don't think of me that way initially, right. And then it happens and you're like what she did, what you know what I mean, and so that is to me what is happening with Kamala. You just didn't see her in that way. America did not see her in that way.

Brittany S. Hale: 28:19

Sure.

Karen McFarlane: 28:20

So it feels like a surprise, but it was never a surprise. People have to be given the right roles for who they are right and leaders need to recognize. I guess the long way around this right is. Leaders need to recognize that talent early, figure that out and give people opportunity to shine right and not be threatened by it.

Brittany S. Hale: 28:44

I love that you're bringing this point up, because one it absolutely is about having someone in the right role, right? So you know, I'm the millennial multi-hyphenate, I can talk. Oh yeah, you know, I popped in and I went to this country and I worked with this and it's not something that I'm going to share until the time is appropriate to share it, right, and to say, oh yes, well, you know, I've been an attorney and you know I've had these experiences. But that pathway and that trajectory kind of looks like this instead of like this Right, and the best leaders, the people who really mind my potential, have been the people that have been like I'm following. I can understand the narrative, I can see the value of all of these experiences and how we got here, but to say, oh well, you know, karen is just Karen is just right, or Brittany is just so she's, she's just a lawyer, you know, that's whatever and it's like OK, but lawyer elected official, right, whatever, and it's like OK, but lawyer elected official, right, all of these other things, entrepreneur, nonprofit, you can go on and on.

Brittany S. Hale: 30:14

And the question should always be for a leader what is the value derived from their experiences. Am I taking the right understanding and having the right understanding of who they are as a person, and am I expansive enough to view it in totality? Oh, look, see, look, I think we we got to the point. But the question is right can I view it in totality in a way that best aligns with my vision for success? And we're starting to see this now with job descriptions. My question for leaders all the time is what do you need them to do? What does success look like? What does success look like? Kamala, again, didn't go to a T14 law school. T14, meaning in the tiered system, did not go to one of the top 14 law schools in the country. In the country, most of the presidents prior to her have gone to Harvard or Yale or, you know, some combination of them, right? So if we were to add that additional caveat, right? Our president must be over 35, must be a US citizen, must have gone to an Ivy League law school.

Karen McFarlane: 31:54

You would never see Kamala.

Brittany S. Hale: 31:56

We would never see Kamala.

Karen McFarlane: 31:59

And as we never see lots of candidates because of either an explicit or implicit bias towards the school that they go to, right and so, um, I'm hopeful for these shifts, like one of the things that, uh, I co-authored a report on the talent pipeline. You know marketing's role um inclusive future and we focus on the talent pipeline for the first report, and we did supplier diversity for the second report, and a theme that was very similar throughout both was don't just focus on achievement, focus on potential.

Karen McFarlane: 32:36

Because if you're just focused on achievement, you're just going to look for the Ivy Leagues or the 10 years of experience and all that type of stuff the Ivy leagues or the 10 years of experience and all that type of stuff when non-traditional candidates non-traditional from whatever you're looking at may not have all of that, but they absolutely may have the potential to do what you need done. And so, as a leader, you can't just look at the data on a data, on a resume, or you have to dig deeper and understand the people around you. It may be more difficult if you're hiring off the street, essentially, but the talent that you have hired and are around you, you have to get to know those people and understand how they work right, how they think and how you can best leverage that right For you and for them.

Brittany S. Hale: 33:35

Right, that's what keeps them there, whether they're working from home or in the building.

Karen McFarlane: 33:42

What are they miserable doing. If they're slow at something, that doesn't mean they're bad, right. It means maybe that's not the right task for them and that's the right task for somebody else, and you should partner them with them and focus their energy on something that's exciting, that really taps into you know how they think and their potential, and give them that runway. So, as a leader, it's not just me just getting the work done. It's about how you manage and, for lack of a better word right now manipulate the talent that you have in a way that's meaningful for everyone, so that you can uncover that, tap potential and find those superstars and they may be superstars in a big way and superstars in a very narrow way, it doesn't really matter. You just want to get the best out of everyone.

Brittany S. Hale: 34:32

Like, if you give me I was just going to ask you what's the thing to give you that you'd be like oh she's a dud.

Karen McFarlane: 34:43

You can. You can ask me to some data analysis. I can do it. Okay, I can do lots of things. Right, I can do that as fast, it's better that you go give it out to a data scientist.

Brittany S. Hale: 34:55

Okay, correct, correct.

Karen McFarlane: 34:56

And then let me take that interpret, strategize and run it this down the third Right. There are certain things that I don't even like to do. I can do it.

Brittany S. Hale: 35:05

I don't like to do it.

Karen McFarlane: 35:06

I don't like to do social media. It is a tedious task, but I also know it's important. So while I can plan your strategy around it, the execution of it is probably not something you want caroline to do on a daily basis. And I tell people this right, no shade. No, because listen right, I have to be honest and transparent.

Karen McFarlane: 35:25

So I'm being honest with you about what I feel. My strengths and my gaps are right. You want me thinking about your strategy, your business, your people. You may even want me managing your people. You want me developing your marketing plans. You want me to execute on a very high level. I can also execute on a lower level, don't get me wrong, but that's where you probably want me the most and I'll get your teams to do what they need to do and they'll learn and they'll be awesome at it and we'll get stuff done. Don't hire me just to do SEO. I'm probably not going to take the job anyway, but you know what I mean.

Brittany S. Hale: 36:06

It's not my strength and I need people to understand that about me and tap into that, yeah, and you've already done the hard work, which is, of course, to know yourself right. You can clearly communicate that. Don't ask me to live in an excel sheet if that's where I'm spending a majority of a 40 hour work week. It's a long, arduous, incredibly boring week.

Karen McFarlane: 36:35

And you're not getting the most.

Brittany S. Hale: 36:38

You're not getting the most right, even practicing right Practicing as an attorney. You have people who are transactional, who live in a document, on my feet in the courtroom, engaging with jurors, a judge, my adversaries, witnesses, you know, like the building that connectivity, developing that strategy, communicating that value, that's what I need to be doing.

Karen McFarlane: 37:13

And I see that I can't. I know, I know you can, right, but I see that you would light up in front of people, right, and that's what you you want. You can do the other stuff, but we get right, we get full britney right. We're in that type of environment I.

Brittany S. Hale: 37:34

I haven't been in that environment, but I know that already right and so do you remember that movie, uh, pleasantville, where, like, the people were gray and then they started living life and then they, like, were in color? Yes, that's like. Do you want gray, karen and britney sit us in a room by ourselves not speaking to anybody, right, exactly?

Karen McFarlane: 38:02

yeah, yeah. So I, I, as you started with the tale of the tale of two, um, wait, no two the tale of two americas.

Karen McFarlane: 38:17

I mean, I think that was so aptly put. It's going to be very interesting going forward to see which America wins and when I say that I say that I pause to say win, because I feel like it's not really about winning right, it's not just about the election no-transcript and that those that want a different America can slowly come to realize at some point in time that an America that embraces all of us was the original intention to some degree, or should be going forward right, as we evolve its evolution. Sure, I'm one of those people who don't want to go back, so and includes them too.

Brittany S. Hale: 39:39

Right, because it includes their right to dissent. And, like I tell any leader of an organization, 20% hopefully less, but at least 20% of the group that you're leading are going to be dissatisfied, no matter what you do, no matter what you do. So the hope is, in that hopeful America, that we can understand and respect that there are going to be some folks who are just not pleased whatsoever and not allow that to detract from the mission of going forward, because we are not going back.

Karen McFarlane: 40:23

Because we're metrics driven.

Brittany S. Hale: 40:25

Let's put a stat on that.

Karen McFarlane: 40:26

Let's hope that it's not 20%, it's 19%. Is that realistic?

Brittany S. Hale: 40:32

I'm with that? I'm with that. We love a smart goal. I guess we'll see in what 74 days?

Karen McFarlane: 40:40

Yes, we'll see what. 74 days, yes, yes, we'll see, we'll keep watch.

Brittany S. Hale: 40:49

Yes.

Karen McFarlane: 40:51

Keep spouting some leadership lessons.

Brittany S. Hale: 40:54

Absolutely. I'll see you soon.

Karen McFarlane: 40:58

Feel better, see you soon, thank you.

Brittany S. Hale: 41:02

Bye.