Karen McFarlane: 0:32

Hi Brittany, Hi Karen, how are you? I'm good. How are you doing today?

Brittany S. Hale: 0:38

I am doing well, I'm enjoying it, enjoying the day.

Karen McFarlane: 0:43

It's a beautiful day, but you know we're here, because we're always here, yes, to talk about what's going on in the world.

Brittany S. Hale: 0:50

We are.

Karen McFarlane: 0:52

Something crazy happened just a few short days ago, right?

Brittany S. Hale: 0:58

you're gonna have to narrow it down because it feels like something crazy is happening multiple times every day. So can you break it down for me please?

Karen McFarlane: 1:10

you're right. So, um, I'm referring to the National Association of Black Journalists and their event or conference that our Republican presidential nominee had joined, and some of the controversial statements that he made regarding the Democratic nominee, kamala Harris. That's the kind of crazy I was talking about.

Brittany S. Hale: 1:41

Okay, okay, now I'm with you. It's all coming back to the foreground, so I should. I should note that the Democratic presidential nominee, or presumed Democratic presidential nominee, did not attend, and it seems to be some sort of conflict, scheduling conflict and so there was the option to only have our Republican presidential nominee there, and the choice to have him speak was pretty controversial, right.

Karen McFarlane: 2:26

It was, and in all fairness, that NABJ has had nominees and presidents there that you know from both sides of the aisle in the past, some of which have, I think, made some controversial statements as well, but I don't know that it has been of the ilk right of this one. And you, you know, maybe it's because you know this is the well second time in history right potentially in terms of person of color, of having a multi-racial background, and for some reason that is confusing to people, and when I say people, I mean all people, I mean white people, I mean black people, I mean all people are somehow confused that a person can be more than one thing and I'm confused by why that's confusing.

Brittany S. Hale: 3:35

Yeah, yeah, you know, because we've had multiracial and biracial people in the United States since before the United States became the United States and before our current iteration and understanding of race. Because race has not been this static definition throughout the history of the United States. Right, it's evolved over, sometimes decade to decade, to match the evolution of the country.

Karen McFarlane: 4:19

Exactly so. His statements about the fact that Kamala turned Black, I guess to appeal to, you know, the Black voting bloc right, and that she's always promoted her Indian heritage, is also another divisive tactic. Right To separate not only the general population of people of color who can identify with all sides of her. As we talked about last week, she is multifaceted in not only her identity from a demographic perspective, but also just her family structure and extended family. But it's also a tactic to divide us as Black people and I think that that part is the most confusing to me, that we as Black people are confused about her multiracial identity or biracial identity, and I want people to understand one. The definition maybe that's just, you know there's, as you just talked about, race, race being a social construct. Right, fine, that there might be some confusion around what those things mean, but also recognize that it is being used as a tool for a greater purpose and that we shouldn't fall into that trap.

Brittany S. Hale: 6:00

Yes, correct. Quick question before we dive into that At what point did you turn black and what was that experience like for you?

Karen McFarlane: 6:15

Yeah, I think from the womb. I think from the womb. However, I will say so. My, my parents are Jamaican and I am, because Jamaica recognizes citizenship through just one grandparent.

Brittany S. Hale: 6:32

I have two parents that have immigrated from Jamaica.

Karen McFarlane: 6:33

Oh, interesting. Yeah, so I identify as Black and Jamaican, right, yes, but I in my earlier days was told, well, you're not Black, you're Jamaican. Mm-hmm, and that has been said to me more than once. Okay, yes, when I was younger a little bit less as like less. So now, right Cause, uh, you know, people are a little bit more educated around that but I was like what do you? What are you talking about? Those are two different things, okay, so, so I've been hit with that and it's just really been on. How about you? When did you turn black?

Brittany S. Hale: 7:27

Yeah, so you know I'm going to have to go with conception the womb. I am someone who would be considered black American, meaning that my family, you know, my nationality, you, you know I'm a citizen of the united states and my ethnic origin, right, is of black. I'm a black american ethnic origin, meaning that the cultures, the, the language, the vernacular of black americans is is what I was born into, and so my ancestors have been here, quite literally for hundreds of years, black people to be Black women to be formally recognized in a court of law as a, as a human being, because she sued. She sued her. She was an enslaved person who sued her white owner because her white owner impregnated her and refused to acknowledge and or care for the child. And so there was the question of what do we do?

Brittany S. Hale: 8:46

And if we are to hear this claim, we are tacitly accepting her humanhood, her womanhood, her right to be heard in a United States court of law that it has real impact because at that time and for very obvious purposes, if you, if a white person, a white man, impregnated an enslaved woman, her children would more often than not be considered enslaved. And that was just, you know, a numbers game, because it increased, increased your enslaved population. And so again America, or the United States since it, before it became the United States, had to wrestle with this concept of what to do with people who are, who are embodying both identities. And what do we do with a child Fathered by a white man, born to an enslaved woman? What, how do we, how do we reconcile that? It's been a fascinating evolution to see whiteness and blackness evolve throughout the United States and society and law that's a really great point.

Karen McFarlane: 10:38

I mean especially the legal implications of all of that, implications of all of that, and you know it's, it's interesting. I was talking with a friend of mine. She's from the South and you know, of course, in the South, the one drop rule applied, correct? I don't know what that is. That basically meant, if you had one drop of Black blood in you, you were considered Black, and that was to prevent black people from trying to pass as white, although we know some of that happens. But and that is a construct also that has been very pervasive in our times and clearly still lingers today, and that's why I think you have certain groups saying, well, she's not Black, she's Asian. But this idea that you have to choose is very interesting to me, right?

Karen McFarlane: 11:36

So we typically talk about biracial people as being Black and white. Right, and because of this one drop rule, you chose this, or you chose based on what you looked like, right? How is society going to treat you If you look Black? Claiming that you were white in the society that we live in, lived in and continue to live in is not going to fly, because we are a racialized society, right? Correct? So we don't really too often talk about other races mixing. Yes, I think it's a beautiful thing, but we don't usually talk about it in that way or as often. And so you have Kamala Harris. That represents these two communities, and people are trying to define her when it's her job to define herself, and she doesn't have to choose at all. Right both things, but we're asking her to be one and critiquing her because she's not choosing one over the other. Why does it have to be right either, or why can't it be?

Brittany S. Hale: 13:01

and so this is? This is fascinating for a few reasons. One, of course, is the rejection of nuance, which is a pervasive thing that we're experiencing throughout our society. At this point, everything's very polarized. It's either, quite literally, black or white, good or bad, one or the other, and we're doing ourselves a disservice by denying the complexity and celebrating being multifaceted people who embody a number of identities. Because she self-identifies as a Black woman, right, she honors herself as a South Asian woman, as a multiracial woman, as a stepmom, so there's so many different aspects to who she is.

Brittany S. Hale: 13:53

Additionally, when we talk about the one drop rule and we talk about race, we have to remember the phenotyping is so important because, to your point, you can be multiracial, you can be biracial, and that may not match someone else's understanding. So there are countless people I want to say what is it? One in five white Americans today have a black ancestor and it's because at some point in time there was intermingling, intermixing and one's ability to pass or to be accepted into white society and forego their black identity. Know, be accepted into white society and forego their Black identity, you know, tended to have certain benefits that you know that was not always something that worked in people's favor. But it happened Additionally. Even if you were biracial, if you do not fit a phenotypical understanding, meaning that your skin was a bit more melanated than was deemed acceptable and you couldn't pass as being Mediterranean or you know, somehow some sort of exoticized other, then you were relegated to to being black.

Brittany S. Hale: 15:20

And this is especially fascinating to me because my, my thesis in law school applied the traditional tenets of property rights to race. So when you think about property law, the main tenets of property law is the right to control, the right to enjoyment, the right to disposition or destruction and, most importantly, the right to enjoyment, the right to disposition or destruction and, most importantly, the right to exclude. So when we so my, my thesis at the time was that blackness as a concept, if we looked at blackness as a property right, was not in fact or traditionally not, owned by black people, not in fact or traditionally not owned by black people, and that, if we're honing in even on one of them, the right to exclude uh, we've seen that throughout the history of the united states, black people did not own that right. So you had miscegenation laws, you had laws that govern one's identity, so you had traditionally the, the historical term of mulatto, which meant a half white, half black person and was called mulatto in reference to a mule because it was traditionally thought that people who were half white and half black were so outside of the bounds of nature that they could not reproduce. Of course we know that's nonsense, but nevertheless it happened.

Brittany S. Hale: 16:55

The idea of a quadroon, someone who was one quarter black, or an octoroon right, Someone who was one eighth black and what that meant, someone who was one eighth black and what that meant. But none of these racial distinctions were set by black people. Republican vice presidential nominee attempting to exercise this right over blackness, to exclude this woman from a community that they're not even part of Right. But it leans back into our traditional white patriarchal societal norms, which says these are the people who set the norms, these are the people who own race and get to decide who we can exclude from whiteness and at the same time assign to Blackness or exclude from Blackness.

Karen McFarlane: 18:05

Oh my gosh, that's so fascinating. Um, the whole concept of we've never owned blackness, which is so true. Like as you were talking, I'm like who even came up with black right? Like that doesn't really too much on the African continent? Who came up with that and how did it become so pervasive?

Brittany S. Hale: 18:27

How did?

Karen McFarlane: 18:27

that become our norm.

Karen McFarlane: 18:29

And you're so, right, like we were never, um, since being brought to this country, in that position, and the big question is how do we take it back? You know, looking at Kamala, especially when it's been so ingrained in us, right, yes, and she doesn't really talk about her race in general, right, correct, obviously she's identified, as you said, as Black and Asian American or South Asian, black and Asian American or South Asian, but that's not the center point of her platform, right, because? A it doesn't need to be, because we all have eyes and we can see it, which again is a dangerous notion, right, because we can't know who people are.

Karen McFarlane: 19:22

I mean, my ancestry DNA says I'm about 10 to 12%. You know white, right. I don't think anybody looking at me would say that, but technically I could claim to be white Correct. Correct and if you checked that off right. Who could how?

Brittany S. Hale: 19:49

can someone argue that? Right, I got my papers Exactly, I have genetic proof, and this goes to the heart of why race is so complex and, in many respects, absurd. However, we made it so real and there are very clear indicators. I mean, even as we were. We're talking about blackness, you know, from a marketing perspective. I'm thinking of aunt jemima, I'm thinking of uncle ben. Right, these, these signals that we've received about blackness within the United States, which is typically people who are in a helpful or subservient position. Right, aunt Jemima is going to help you create a breakfast because, well, you can't. You may not have your own black cook. You may not have your own black cook, but she makes you feel safe. You may not have your own black cook, but Uncle Ben is here to make sure that you can still receive a nutritious and delicious meal, and We've had to reconcile with that in recent times. We've seen I think it's called the Pearl Meal Company now, instead of using Aunt.

Karen McFarlane: 21:19

Jemima, but whose aunt is she? Who is she related to? Right? I'll take it back further. That is just an illustration of what already is Right. So, going back to that, that question I just asked about who decided we were black. Somebody decided and that was the best marketing campaigns. Right, they branded Blackness and somehow got the entire world to believe that, To accept it. Exactly. Now there are some small branding issues, right, when you come outside of it.

Karen McFarlane: 22:09

There are some small branding issues, right, when you come outside of the book. So, for instance, I think one of the best books actually I listened to it because it was Trevor Noah's book Born a Crime, and you have to listen to that because you have to hear his voice and he also talks in his native language, so you have to hear that. But one of the things that's really fascinating that he talks about when he's growing up in South Africa is this they have a different construct of race, right? And so, while Black is still universal, who is categorized in that category more so has to do, yes, with skin color, but also with economics, right, correct, you have black, which I guess you would term full black like black parents right, then you have colored right, which is a mix of races, and then you have white.

Karen McFarlane: 23:07

But this is where I'm going to get wrong.

Karen McFarlane: 23:10

When they were in, when South Africa was in negotiations, trade agreements and such with either China or Japan I just don't remember which one classification was part of that, and where would they be placed, and one group I want to say japan, I really want to say japan, but I could be wrong was classified as white because that had the greater economic status, right. So you were classified based on economic status, which, at the end of the day, this is what this is all about. Classification boils down to economics and who's going to have power and influence over society. But again, my point being is that racial construct morphs somewhat based on the interests of the country and how we want to utilize race for that power and influence.

Brittany S. Hale: 24:09

And we can see when we travel a little bit like, how those differences kind of play out, which can sometimes seem vastly different in the in the Americas which was built Correct On on economic interests, and I think when we're talking about race and racial classification and the benefits or detriments that come with it, we have to remember that power is not acquired, it's exercised. Yes, and so I think back to your question of you know who decided on blackness at the outset of the? You know the 13 colonies. You had indentured servants and you had enslaved people, but for a particular period of time, within the colonies in Virginia, you could. You could buy your freedom. In fact you did have. You know, black settlers that owned other Black people for a limited time. Then you have Bacon's Rebellion, where you have a ton of indentured servants and people who occupy the lower economic classes rebelling against those with means, and that was problematic.

Brittany S. Hale: 25:27

So the question was okay, well, how do we, how do we differentiate? You know, how do we say one of these things is not like the other, and that's, you know, that's where we start getting these race law, the emergence of these race laws, right, and now people can't congregate, they can't marry, they can't, you know, hang out in groups. There's no. You have this social stratification where Blackness is always at the bottom and we see the manipulation of that even now, right where the pursuit of whiteness is. It's seductive and it becomes kind of a part of becoming a US citizen in a way, because I would say early 1900s, late 1800s, early 1900s, italians were not considered white, Irish were not considered white. You had publications referring to Irish people as having paws. So there was something to be seen as something inherently unnatural about this group.

Brittany S. Hale: 26:39

But over time we see that certain groups are allowed again into whiteness, provided that they exclude themselves and distance themselves from blackness. Kamala is really Black, and whether we're in a space where people get to define themselves for themselves, because we see a multiracial woman who went to a historically Black university, joined a historically Black sorority and has maintained a presence and a connection to the Black community. So then my question is well, what is if we're saying that she's not Black one? What does that mean? And are we all agreed in what Blackness means? And so I guess, to bring it back to the conference, I am disappointed that providing that platform to this nominee allowed for the furtherance of a very ignorant idea, which is that, you know, this man who considers himself to be a white American now gets to sow seeds of doubt and dissension within another community that he's wholly been shown to not respect about who belongs there.

Karen McFarlane: 28:34

Even if he did respect it, he doesn't need to talk about who belongs there. You know, on either side of the aisle. And this question I think that we have to answer, or Black people have to answer, is like what were you alluding to? What is black enough Right? So, within our community, what is black enough Like? Why are we having this debate at all, right? And outside of the community, who's having this debate? Stop it.

Karen McFarlane: 29:06

I have a conversation about and there's all these articles about it. I'm like, oh my goodness, so now it's a problem that she's Black Like theoretically for people who you know don't want her to win. Right, like her Blackness and acceptance of that should be cool with you. Right, because you think of that as a lower rung within the American caste system, essentially. But here's the problem You're going to make it an issue not in the way that you want to make an issue, because she has momentum, and when you start to tally all of these Black voters and then you add the Asian voters right, who are largely Democratic voting blocs, you start to get scared Because and wait you have this multiracial group that I don't know.

Karen McFarlane: 30:09

Maybe they checked other on the census, I have no idea. Right, you have this other group and that's a growing population of people.

Karen McFarlane: 30:19

Yes, we are more multiracial than ever. You start to get scared. So you have to sow division to keep us apart. It is an age old tactic and I would say a negative, detrimental marketing tactic to do so. It's very effective because it is so ingrained in our society. You cannot have groups that have mostly been separated Right. That movie I just popped up in my head with Denzel Washington and Ooh, what was her name?

Brittany S. Hale: 30:56

Mississippi Masala.

Karen McFarlane: 30:58

Yes, yes.

Karen McFarlane: 31:04

A movie before it's time but it showed, like the disconnect between the two communities. And so you, she's a melt, she is an amalgamation of those two communities coming together. We're like, oh okay, right, and contrary to pop, contrary to what's trying to be believed here, right, like black people. Ultimately, at the end of the day, we welcome in other groups, we are very welcoming. People get caught up in the drama sometimes, but we'll, we'll. We'll talk all this mess, but we're going to. We're going to go and do what we need to do for the greater good, but it is again. I just want to make this point that it is a tactic of division because they are scared of what could happen. And we are also like a growing number in some of those really important swing states, right, Correct.

Karen McFarlane: 31:57

The four of us that are gathering and supporting and all for Kamala is a threat to the Republican side of this Right, and that's the undertone of what all of this we're real distracted with. What is she? She's not this, she's not that, when, ultimately, guess what? We don't care, right, we just don't like, we're just making it an issue. But, like, when your brother-in-law marries a white girl, we don't care when, when your brother-in-law marries a white girl, we don't care when, when your brother-in-law marries the Puerto Rican, or we're like, cool, a person of color, like we're just, like, we're just accepting. And so why? Why are we feeding in to all of this drama?

Brittany S. Hale: 32:41

Because they're really good at making something that's a non-issue bigger issue than it is, and we just have to remember who we are yes, and remember that, if I'm assuming positive intent, then I would say it's a misguided attempt to exercise that right to exclude, right to try to to retake the power of owning blackness, the power of owning Blackness. But emphasis on the misguided and to your point, we are very accepting. We've had to be because very often there have been other communities that have discarded of their multiracial grandchildren or communities and been very exclusionary communities and been very exclusionary and so we've been welcoming, even when it hasn't benefited us sometimes.

Brittany S. Hale: 33:37

But but, but you're right this tool of distraction and an attempt to keep Americans in this loop of exploring, identifying and rationalizing ourselves, instead of exploring what's next? What is next for us? When it comes to to welcoming this? We know that they're going to be a continued you know, the continued growth of multiracial people within the United States. We are increasingly seeing the benefits of celebrating and building bonds between multiple communities, which is great, and we've we've moved from I don't know if you've heard the phrase, I used to hear it all the time and I didn't use it right no-transcript. If you're open to moving forward instead of looking back.

Karen McFarlane: 35:06

Exactly, I think. One last point I want to speak to the Eidos community.

Brittany S. Hale: 35:19

Define that for folks watching.

Karen McFarlane: 35:24

American descendants of slaves? Yes, gatos community, and I know because I identify as a Black American, but also of Jamaican heritage. So I crossed those borders right.

Brittany S. Hale: 35:40

You're a stop away.

Karen McFarlane: 35:47

Okay, and there's a lot of trade between the Americas and the and the Caribbean, the Caribbean. So you know. I just want to say, listen, that I would just ask that you embrace the entire group. I tend to be disturbed by some of the commentary and so I don't focus in and on it as much, so I might be missing some important elements. I just want to say that there, usually there's a flare up around this conversation around reparations and who is owed reparations. I just feel like we shouldn't be talking about that right conversation around reparations and who is owed reparations. I just feel like we shouldn't be talking about that, right, because reparations are not something that we have in hand. Right, we're, you said Brittany, using our collective selves to basically retake it like, take it as our own own what Blackness means and embrace it in the diaspora, because ultimately, we know we are all originally from, through our ancestors, the same continent just spread, you know, unwillingly and sometimes at will, in our later years, right, these later um across the united states. I mean across the globe, sorry, but particularly in the United States. And so I just want to say I just am asking that group to take a pause. Right, we can revisit reparations when they are awarded right. Revisit that conversation.

Karen McFarlane: 37:40

I understand the differences, obviously, of slavery here and within other countries and personally I'm not. If it were awarded right, I'm not looking for that particular handout. Sorry, it's not a handout. Let me correct that For what's due. I mean, there's a lot of articles out or you know, in terms of, like that recent article about the farmers being paid X dollars, billions of dollars in reparations, right, correct the discrimination and that's incredible and that's awesome.

Karen McFarlane: 38:17

And anyway, I'm taking a very long winded time to say that I just want the whole community to come together and rally around someone who represents so many people, so many different interests. And also another plea is let's not hold her to a greater expectation because of her blackness. She's already going to have a lot on her plate when she wins, because I'm speaking life to that and we just don't want to make it harder. I'm not saying to make it easy on her, but we have a tendency, as part of our own internal biases, to hold certain groups to a higher account and we just need to make sure that we check ourselves and be supportive in that way. And also, it's not just about what she's going to do. It's about what we are going to do to support that effort. Anyway, I'm off my high horse on that.

Brittany S. Hale: 39:16

I appreciate you on the high horse, because I don't really think there's anything else to be said. I think that was so eloquently put, so, so thank you.

Karen McFarlane: 39:32

All right. Well, I just want to conclude with saying I identify as Black, as a Black American of Jamaican heritage, and pretty soon I, hopefully, will obtain my Jamaican citizenship as well. So I'll be a dual citizen of America and Jamaica, and I love it. Identify as black.

Brittany S. Hale: 39:48

Love it, love it. I will continue to identify as a black American and, as I said to friends, I'm as American as apple pie. So when you look around at black americans again, you, regardless of what others may think, you see a lot of people who are patriots, who are equally, if not more so, invested in the betterment of this country. And, um, I'm looking forward to celebrating your dual citizenship.

Karen McFarlane: 40:27

I'm going to work on it, but I'm going to get there All right. Until next time, brittany, see ya.