Karen McFarlane: 0:31

Hey Brittany.

Brittany S. Hale: 0:33

Hey Karen.

Karen McFarlane: 0:35

How are you? Uh-oh, uh-oh, we got a heavy sigh.

Brittany S. Hale: 0:43

I'm in deep thought. So, I'll think about how I'm feeling, but the synapses are firing, the wheels are turning and I'm just thinking about positioning.

Karen McFarlane: 1:00

Oh, tell me more.

Brittany S. Hale: 1:04

So a lot of people will argue that we live in an over-communicated society. I'm a huge fan of effective communication. At the same time, I admit that we receive a lot of messages, often faster than our brains can process Correct, and so in that messaging there's a degree of simplicity that has to be there, but there also has to be clarity. We have to understand what, you know, a product, a service, a brand wants us to take away, and why we should engage with them. And so I'm just thinking about what happens when brands lose that clarity or they make a public walk back from stances that they've taken, and what it means for the communities that engage with them.

Karen McFarlane: 2:12

Does that make sense? It makes sense to me. So wait, are you talking about? I don't know what you call that in marketing. Does that make sense? It makes sense to me, so wait, are you talking about I don't know what you call that in marketing. Yes, so Do they stand on their business? Maybe that's what we need to call it.

Brittany S. Hale: 2:29

Maybe it is, maybe it is. I am talking about SHRM. Are you familiar with SHRM? I am talking about SHRM. Are you familiar with SHRM?

Karen McFarlane: 2:39

I am familiar with SHRM. I am very familiar with SHRM, the shenanigans as we like to call them.

Brittany S. Hale: 2:50

So for those, exactly for those listening. Shrm stands for the Society for Human Resource Management and they offer credentials, conferences and opportunities for human resource people, leaders, leaders in general, to upskill their understanding of human resources in the workplace. It is an interesting organization. I've actually spoken at one of their inclusion conferences. I spoke about intergenerational communication. So it's an organization that was started in 1949. They had their first conference in Cleveland and they only had about 67 attendees.

Brittany S. Hale: 3:46

Now, you know, there are almost half a million members across hundreds of countries and it seems that they have a pretty huge impact. And so for the past few years SHRM has advocated for diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging. But recently there was a pivot, a very public pivot, and they decided to move away from dei and instead focus on I and d, which stands for inclusion and diversity, and for anyone you know who is listening, they're stripping away what we like to talk about here in the very public key. And so they said their commitment to advancing equity remains steadfast and that by leading with inclusion it will it's kind of baked in right It'll catalyze this kind of holistic change in the workplace. And they said, you know, inclusion for all, not some people. Everyone has a right to feel they belong in the workplace and that they're included. So curious to know what you think. Is this a step back?

Karen McFarlane: 5:22

I'm very confused by this, to be quite honest, right, because they say that equity will be baked in but they don't want to call it out. That equity will be baked in, but they don't want to call it out. It was also said that it was better, like in having conversations with different HR constituents, equity was the thing that had varying definitions they could not agree on, but inclusion and diversity they could agree on right.

Karen McFarlane: 5:55

Everybody knew what that was. So I find it really interesting and suspect right Around like okay, so you are a world's leading organization in HR that's meant to teach, educate, inform, upskill right, form, upskill right, and because there are differing definitions on equity, you've decided to remove it instead of maybe creating a standard definition, using your privilege in the market space that you have created over these decades. That's the part that's really confusing to me, because that seems natural to lean in and define something, a problem within the discipline, right, because that's what you're supposed to be doing as a business that they would just say, hey, yeah, let's just take it out and just assume we'll try to bake it in, because it's the hardest part of the DEI equation, which is why we talk about it, right, but let's not talk about it. You mean, when I'm talking about it, but they're saying, hey, let's not talk about that. So I just don't understand what's up with that to talk about that. So I just don't understand what's up with that and there's no clear rationale for it.

Karen McFarlane: 7:23

I think one person in the comments of the post she basically just called it word salad. She's on Black Women's. Equal Pay Day is when you all decide to release this word salad of a statement. Instead, it would have been a great time for SHRM to start accepting some accountability for the heinous role HR plays in wage and wealth disparity by furthering racism and inequity for the benefit of employers Removing equity. That's a loud and clear message. Right, like we can talk about the day that they chose to do the announcement. Right, because that's the whole thing right there, but they really didn't say anything. I mean this quote is we're going to lead with him. He meaning johnny c taylor, that's the ceo of sure. Okay, we're going to lead with inclusion, because we need a world where inclusion is front and center, and that means inclusion for all, not some people. Everyone has a right to feel that they belong in the workplace and that they are included, but where's the how?

Brittany S. Hale: 8:32

yes, so I'm curious because, yes, there's. There's so many things. I'd like for us to go back Again Black Women's Equal Pay Day. It's a day where we calculate the extent of pay inequity that Black women face in the US. What black women typically earn, which is about 66 cents to the dollar for what white, non-hispanic men earn, it's going to take until 2,227 for black women to pay the equal white men for a full 365 days. A full 365 days 2,362 per pay, equity with all earnings.

Brittany S. Hale: 9:23

So it's safe to say we've got a ways to go and that's just for one group. We're not talking about women as a whole and presenting people. We're not talking. Women as a whole, femme presenting people we're not talking. This is just one way that the absence of equity manifests at work and that, in and of itself, is incredibly rich, incredibly nuanced, incredibly detailed and deserving of equity. Deep, deep work and advocacy and policy change. I agree, where's sharon? So I guess, from a a marketing perspective, like I learned so much from you and I'm trying to think about marketing way more than I should, maybe way more than I have previously. Um, because now, when I see messages presented to me, when I see brands presented to me, I think about what they want me to take away and why they want me to come away with that belief or message or enhanced trust. What is your take on this from a marketing perspective? Are we supposed to believe in more because of this?

Karen McFarlane: 10:57

I don't see how you can because of the way that they did it. I don't see how you can because of the way that they did it Right. And again, the explanation, which is not really an explanation it really kind of assumes people are stupid.

Karen McFarlane: 11:07

So that's also the danger in your, in the communication style Right Now. They just had their annual conference. I've seen some mixed messaging around whether Johnny Taylor talked about this at the conference or not. It would have been good to talk about this at the conference and make this a big piece of his keynote remarks. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I've only seen clips of his keynotes and it hasn't really mentioned that. Maybe I, maybe I missed something, um, but not everybody went to. Not everybody went to that event.

Karen McFarlane: 11:50

Right, and so, whether he did or didn't, there needs to be a broader communication around that, and they chose to do that on social media In part. That's fine, but, like, where is the deeper explanation around it? Right, where is the deeper rationale? I don't see that in the post. It's just like, hey, here's what we're doing. Like, where is the, the background, where is the statistics? Where is, like, the deeper conversation around how this is going to be better for the industry? You're taking away something that has been preached to be really important for a very long time, right, and so whenever you take away something, you have to do extra work to explain the benefits of not having it going forward, right, I don't see that yet here, right, and and even if you're taking away something like obviously you and I believe equities, like is the hard, deep work that you talked about, right, Even if you're taking away something that's not important, that's not seemingly important, you still have to do the same work.

Karen McFarlane: 12:56

Right, because people don't like things being taken away without deep explanation. Right, because people don't like things being taken away without deep explanation. And so I feel like that's a miss Right and a missed opportunity to again lead in this area. Because of what I've seen of Johnny Taylor is that his viewpoints right and maybe this is what they're relying on but, like his viewpoints seem to make to be meaningful, right and relevant to the HR industry, to the organization as a whole, and so he could have very well taken this moment to do this better, but there was a choice not to right. So all the things in the past seems to have been done pretty well and you have a track record of, you know him speaking and you know his thought leadership and et cetera, et cetera, right, but in this moment it kind of alters and I'm again wondering why, right? Why are you leaving us all so confused?

Brittany S. Hale: 14:16

What place does consistency have in marketing? Or even repositioning or a rebrand.

Karen McFarlane: 14:25

Well, consistency is the thing that builds trust right In general. Also, you know you want consistency from a tactical perspective because you have to reiterate messages over and over again for them to stick.

Karen McFarlane: 14:40

I forget what the stat is but you know people need to see something at least nine times before it starts to resonate.

Karen McFarlane: 14:47

So there's nothing that's a one and done, right?

Karen McFarlane: 14:51

I think that's also why you don't see, especially with social media, you don't see like these big splashes as much, right, these big see, like these big splashes as much, right, these big, huge launches don't really happen as much as they did in the past.

Karen McFarlane: 15:05

You just see a sprinkling out of information, repetitive information, over and over again. I think that we're processing information a lot differently as consumers, so that from a tactical perspective, but overall from a trust perspective, right, like, if you just think about the general relationships that you have with people, right, you trust the ones that you can count on. Right, you know how they're going to show up, you know their values, you know how they're going to process and think about things, or the feedback or relationship, right, it's the same thing, because consumers extend that personal relationship with the brand as well, and so so that's why consistency is super critical, and I think it underpins the DEI work, right, because DEI work is so incredibly personal to an individual, to groups, right, and then, of course, that filters out to the organization and extension to the consumers as a whole.

Brittany S. Hale: 16:12

So, with that, brandon, I ask that because and I love the way that you started it right Consistency breeds trust. And I love the way that you started it right consistency breeds trust because I I decided to go on the.

Brittany S. Hale: 16:26

SHRM inclusion 2024 website, where they they say that you should understand it's going to help expand your IND knowledge. One of their content tracks is equity. This is equity central to an inclusive workplace. Organizations must guarantee fair treatment regardless of prescribed gender, race, class or other factors. This includes equitable pay and recognition, as well as equal access to resources, opportunities and rewards for all. What do we do with that?

Karen McFarlane: 17:10

I mean, it could be two things it's still part of their ethos, or they didn't get a chance to clean up the website before all this was over. They didn't get a chance to clean up the website before all this was over.

Brittany S. Hale: 17:21

So yeah, that's. My question is is this what they mean by kind of sneaking or I'm saying sneaking but folding equity into IND, or, to your point, is it just a lack of care? And if it is the lack of care, if it's in groups, how are we supposed to build trust? How are we supposed to trust in the thought leadership People are coming to learn? People genuinely want to know how to bring this back to their organizations. What do we do with that?

Karen McFarlane: 18:03

I mean, it's tricky, right? So okay, so I'm just going to I'm going to go back to the tactical aspect there, right, like, this is the leadership there probably is a plan, all right, to go through all the content that has been created, review it and map it back to whatever this plan is, but that's going to take some time, and they made a decision to announce this and change as they go. Obviously, I don't work there, but this is probably what I would do, right? So there's going to be inconsistency. However, what I would have initially done is at least, on that homepage that you just went to, right, that it feels consistent. And that's a lot of work, right, because I think, when I went to it too, the breadcrumb at the top said diversity, equity, inclusion. That hasn't changed yet, but that's a technical structural website thing, right, like, all the links need to be changed. It's actually a lot of work to backtrack everything that you've been saying, so let me level that up. Right, they said they're going to just focus on.

Karen McFarlane: 19:19

IND I would want again this is me going back to where's my rationale and the how. I would have want some sort of I don't know to where's my rationale and the how I would have wanted some sort of I don't know infographic or something that demonstrated how they think about IND and equity, where equity and other things sit and belongings sit right, or any other terms. They talk about civility, which I actually like, right, yeah, yeah, about civility, which I actually like, right. What is their framework for their new framework for IND? Right? That would have been the way that I would have wanted to announce. This is okay.

Karen McFarlane: 20:03

I met with a bunch of people and equity is amorphous to a lot of people, and we've made this decision that we're going to pull equity out of it. We're going to keep it, but we're going to pull it out of the main category Again, weird, but we need to illustrate this for people. So, working with practitioners on, or your internal groups, however, your consultants, however you do that and how we now explain the new path forward there's no path forward in this that I see. Right, that's the myth to me. You can't just say stuff and then people just accept it to be true. I mean, maybe that's the world that we live in, for a lot of different reasons, but I would hope that this organization again that's an educational association right is going to create tools for people to leverage. What do people do with this information right now? What do they?

Brittany S. Hale: 21:09

do? Yes, and that's the question, right? Because now practitioners are conflicted. Do I continue my membership? Do I go to these events? Can I trust the content that I'm being presented with if, from an outside perspective, the focus on the content is going to shift because of perceived pushback in the industry? People are seeking safety and learning in these communities because they themselves are experiencing pushback in their organizations and it's for organizations like SHRM to provide that grounding and to provide instruction on how to not navigate that. How does one have a conversation with the C-suite? So I guess my question is for the people who are seeking to engage with SHRM because they're seeking safety and support in having conversations within their own organizations what do they do? No-transcript. Now we could say you should listen to this podcast, but we can't do all the work by ourselves and SHRM undoubtedly has more resources than we do, right?

Karen McFarlane: 22:57

So Absolutely Well, I think that, one, you as a practitioner, understand the value right, or are determining the value of the EI in your organization, and so, no matter what anyone says, right, that is your work that you have to do in. Whether you, I guess in some respects, whether you decide to call out equity or not, you have to know that equity is the means to inclusion, like, you can't have inclusion without equity, right At the end of the day, right. And so, whether your letters have IED DEI IND DEI, whatever it is right, equity is your foundation. It has to be looked at through an equity lens, and what does that mean for your organization in general? So SHRM is a tool and a resource, but seek other resources.

Karen McFarlane: 24:05

I think you should always have an ongoing debate. Right, you should be collecting information and formulating your own opinion based on your unique circumstances, and so there's definitely other organizations out there. Meet with other practitioners. I actually just came back from a DEI summit, speaking on a panel in a DEI summit for the credit union National Association of Credit Unions, and their theme was DEI is here to stay right, and they wrap their thought processes around the notion of financial inclusion for all, because they're serving the community right.

Karen McFarlane: 24:48

It's for the people in that sense right, and so that is a very unique situation to be in. And in order to have financial inclusion you have to have financial equity. And they understand that there are different circumstances for different people and that growth and prosperity means different things for different customers. But they also want to provide access right for whatever that means to you long term, which is the absolute right approach in that right.

Karen McFarlane: 25:19

So that's the first thing I would say, I think.

Karen McFarlane: 25:23

Secondly, you know there's an article on Forbes written by a partner, ray, who I actually had the pleasure of working with for a brief time.

Karen McFarlane: 25:33

She runs an organization I think now she's an advisor at this organization called Moving Beyond, which is really she's very DEI, inclusive and equity focused, and she kind of wrote a scathing review about this whole thing, whole thing. The article is called SHRM's Problematic DEI Pivot a Step Backwards for Workers' Rights, and she basically lists the things, the recommendations and the calls to action, right. So one of them is let your certification lapse, remove. She's calling for organizations to remove the SHRM requirements, embrace diverse qualifications, do not financially support SHRM, promote inclusive HR education, advocate for better representation to lawmakers and just commit to DEI. I think this element around advocating for better representation to lawmakers is super important because they do speak for us, speak for the industry and, by extension, he was an employee. So I think that's a really critical step, or at least understanding that Sherm's voice is very powerful in that regard and this decision has a greater effect than what we might initially think.

Brittany S. Hale: 27:08

Yes, I am processing. I mean it's, it's so rich, and what I love is you've provided practical solutions. Right, there's a parna did, yes, a parna Aparna, and we will tag her in the show notes, and I think it's really important because we have these moments and, to the point about being over communicated, to the question well, what do I do with this information? Right, if I disagree, what do I do? And these are very clear options and opportunities that people can take to show their displeasure and to show what happens when you have a breach of trust. Yeah, and so, oh, go for it.

Karen McFarlane: 28:05

No, I was just going to say you know, go ahead and take these steps. I think that from some comments that Johnny Taylor made, he anticipates that some people are going to step back. He's OK with that Right and you know, I think it demonstrates and Brittany, you can talk more about this on the leadership perspective Like he's thought through the pros and the cons right Is willing to take this risk because he believes in it and that the concept, the benefits I'm sure he believes outweigh the risks associated with it being done in this way. And I mean there's something to be said for that right, because he acknowledges it outright. He's not saying don't do it, go ahead. If you don't believe it, go ahead, don't renew. But maybe he feels confident that he's going to that the organization is going to come out the other end, okay, and we don't know what the motivators are around. This weird again, really weird and confusing shift, but it's clearly calculated.

Brittany S. Hale: 29:22

Yeah, and that's so. That was what I was going to say is, in marketing, we I mean, we talk about it weekly right? Organizations, brands have very public gas and some navigate that breach of trust skillfully and others don't. Don't Do you think his statement of saying we expect some to stay, we expect others not to and we're okay with that, do you?

Karen McFarlane: 29:59

think that's enough. No, I think there's so much more he could do. I mean, if you just go on his Instagram I mean if you just go on his Instagram he's very active on there. So he's not a quiet CEO, right, that sits in the background. So my expectation for him is to leverage his platform to continue to talk about this right, continue to talk about why and how and the path forward. Right, the decision has been made. Right, it's done? Um, so hopefully he's continuing to listen and he hasn't scrapped it completely, which, again, is completely confusing, right.

Brittany S. Hale: 30:45

Yeah.

Karen McFarlane: 30:46

Yeah, so there's still a safety net around it, you know in some way. So I'd like to watch and see how that unfolds. But the difference is you have people watching in a very different way. In a suspect, it's all sus, right, now right, Whereas before it wasn't there, just could have been. I'm just repeating myself like why didn't you? Why? I really want to know the answer to this why didn't they just take the step to define equity officially and be a beacon for people trying to achieve that very difficult aspect of DEI DEIB?

Brittany S. Hale: 31:41

Yeah.

Karen McFarlane: 31:42

I really want the answer to that question. So he wrote this article A Storm is Coming for HR, which I thought was super interesting, kind of just corralled all the things that HR has gone through in the past few years, like the pandemic and everything. And they have this thing called the Civility index and can I really like this idea of like focusing on civility as an aspect of dei and I suspect they'll probably lean into that. He talked a lot about ai and civility, um, but this was posted on june 24th um.

Karen McFarlane: 32:27

It may have been in their conference, but I think it sets the tone for what is coming around, what has been happening around this and what is still to come.

Karen McFarlane: 32:42

We have a very volatile political environment around DEI. You can't help but think that some of this might play into some of this decision-making. You can't ignore it. You have to ask the question and explore the answer. We don't know the answer to that, but you have to ask. And I think it's just very apropos that that this is an article that he authored around this storm and he's, in part, creating it. He's adding some fuel, yeah, yeah. So I don't know. I think there's still more to come and we still have to keep our eye on the ball, but we're going to keep talking about it, right?

Brittany S. Hale: 33:31

And we are, we are, we are not going to let it go. Civility, which many of us would assume is the bare minimum, but is often overlooked in discussions or discourse between varying ideologies. I think it's important to continue to have these conversations and it's part of why we have this podcast, because part of why we have this podcast, because trends, fads, they come and go, but commitment to equity at least around here stays.

Karen McFarlane: 34:20

Guess what? Here's my word for WC Taylor Storm is coming. Karen and Brittany, we are the storm.

Brittany S. Hale: 34:28

We are the storm Hailstorm.

Karen McFarlane: 34:31

Hailstorm we are the hailstorm, exactly All right, we're going to keep watch on this and come back with any more details. That's what we're here for, the E-Word, because equity is here to stay, so until it is Bye.