Brittany S. Hale: 0:00

What's the E word? It's the E in DEI that everyone ignores but we're here to bring you to good. Welcoming everybody back to the e-word yes, yes, yes, welcome back, welcome back I back Another week of shenanigans. It's always shenanigans, but I like to think that we contextualize it in the best way.

Karen McFarlane: 0:55

So do we have fun doing it, we do, we do.

Brittany S. Hale: 1:00

So I am going to take us down a rabbit hole, because I've been reading these graphic novels that are rooted in Greek mythology. Yeah, just stay with me here, I'm coming back.

Brittany S. Hale: 1:22

I like mythology. I don't know all of it, but I like it. I like the movies, yes. So there was a Trojan priestess that was dedicated to the god Apollo and was fated to utter true prophecies but never be believed. And I thought would I rather utter true prophecies and never be believed, or always be believed but never tell the truth? Oh wow, which would you rather?

Karen McFarlane: 1:57

well, I'm gonna be honest with you.

Brittany S. Hale: 1:58

I feel like I'm number one right now and I'm so glad you said that, because, I mean, I'm sorry that you're not believed, but because, again, to be believed is one of the greatest kindnesses we can do one another. But I thought about that when it came to work, to the world of work, because it seems like there is one group in the world of work, um, and that priestess was named cassandra, by the way, um, or cassandra, however you want to pronounce it, but I was thinking about the cassandras of the world of work and, uh, we happen to be in that group.

Karen McFarlane: 2:48

No, you're right. So I don't say Cassandra, because my best friend, her name is Cassandra. If you say Cassandra, she'll look at you funny, all right.

Brittany S. Hale: 2:55

Okay, well, shout out to Cassandra.

Karen McFarlane: 3:01

No, it's kind of crazy though. But no, it's kind of crazy though, and you know I've been in the world of work for, you know, more than two decades. I stopped telling it might be three, I don't know. Ok, but I stopped it, but it's more than two, we'll just go with that.

Karen McFarlane: 3:18

And honestly, early in my career, you know, there's the confidence aspect of you're trying to build up, and the more confidence you have, the more you actually exude and people theoretically tend to believe you, right, um, but I kind of feel like, even despite these many decades, that I don't have I don't have anybody who have, like, absolute belief, but I feel like the threshold for that is still very high for me to get to.

Karen McFarlane: 3:48

But I mean, at least with my experience, right, like maybe it was down down here below, and then I kind of raising up and something I'm getting to some equilibrium. I don't know that I get there Now sometimes I struggle with the why and I don't know if it's confidence. Well, I think I have it, but then when people don't believe you, it kind of drops you down, right, so you're in a certain equilibrium, but then sometimes you know, I know what I'm talking about, I've said things a million times, and sometimes it takes somebody else usually not a person with my melanin all right to say the same thing for it to be believed, and it's actually super frustrating. I think the other frustrating part about it is that in many instances, more often than not, I just have to accept it.

Brittany S. Hale: 4:46

Oof. That sounds demoralizing.

Karen McFarlane: 4:53

It is if you so, yes, it totally is. But when you're so used to it, right, you put up the barrier Right, which means your acceptance is not like accept and, oh my gosh, I feel so bad about it. But it's accept and move on from it because you can sit and dwell.

Karen McFarlane: 5:17

And how do you change that Right? So that's always a struggle. And those are battles you pick and choose Right. So that's always a struggle. And there's, those are battles you pick and choose right. Some are worth fighting and some are but same. You always have to have that battle.

Brittany S. Hale: 5:37

You know, I was speaking about this with an executive, a coach, one time, about this with an executive coach one time. And she said to me you know the thing I noticed about you you always come over prepared and you tend to over explain. You don't need to do that, and I felt so exposed in the moment. Oh my God, what do you mean? And similarly, what we key to is, yes, I don't need to over explain. Right, it's okay, I have my reasons, I have my rationale, but very often I'm stepping into a space where people are relying upon my expertise and they don't really care about all that ground. They don't care about I got there, they just want to know how I'm going to help them.

Brittany S. Hale: 6:35

But the reason why I over explain, it's a trauma response yeah it's a trauma response of not being believed, of being questioned more than others, um of being a castandra yeah at work.

Brittany S. Hale: 6:55

Um, and so so, again I, when I look, when I look at audiences throughout organizations, there seems to be a common theme that the Cassandras of the workplace more often than not are women of color, but most especially Black women. And we have seen this happen through history. We've seen it in the civil rights movement, where black women's contributions have been minimized. Yes, um, we've seen, or erased, or erased, right. We don't think of Fannie Lou Hamer. We think that Rosa Parks was just this little old lady, this tiny little seamstress, when she was an activist and you know, we're just all. She was just so exhausted that day from working, she just didn't have time instead of it being a strategic moment of activism.

Karen McFarlane: 8:10

Yeah, and I mean even that, just that, that that example, which you know, everybody knows that story but they don't know the backstory is, exemplifies what people just people don't think that black women have the smarts, right, and that's the underlying problem, although we're the most educated right statistically yes yeah, and I think that's that's where we always have to prove.

Karen McFarlane: 8:46

That's why you're always over explaining and explaining correct. It's because people just don't think we're that smart or we have these capabilities and it must have been for some other reason, and or you're even. If you are seen that way, you're looked at as an anomaly. That's not the norm and that's also problematic because it also feeds into this broader societal psyche. Right, because one of the things that has been very frustrating but ingrained in us is to I don't know, just don't believe in our own power, right, and the power of those people around us. So if you are treated like an anomaly, then you believe you're an anomaly and other people around you can't measure up to you, right, and we also see that dynamic between Black men and Black women as well, right, and so it just becomes very pervasive in different segments in society and results in us, even in our own, within our own race, not giving each other the proper kudos and grace that we absolutely should be doing as a people. That's right.

Brittany S. Hale: 10:03

Absolutely, absolutely, and oh, it's so layered, you know to, to, to unpack where that comes from right to be in a space and compete, um, and not offer the support that is expected or due um. But I also want to put some numbers behind it because I count which receipt. Yes, so I have had the benefit of I'm a Rutgers alum, so anyone listening who's a Scarlet Knight? But I had the immense pleasure of serving on a panel Rutgers they have an Edward J Laustein School of Planning and Public Policy and specifically serving on a panel discussing development to workforce development, and they have released a report. That is what we do.

Brittany S. Hale: 11:36

So they have released this study to examine racial and ethnic discrimination at work and opinions when it comes to diversity, equity and inclusion policies and practices across the United States. And this is, you know, it's comprised of full-time and part-time workers, and so they asked questions about perceptions of discrimination and unfair treatment at work. But the first question, you know, do you think discrimination because of race or ethnicity is a major problem, a minor problem or not a problem in private companies or your company? What I thought was fantastically interesting is every group, whether they were Asian, american, black, latino or White, both males and females. Everyone was above 50% in saying that they thought that racial and ethnic discrimination is a major or minor problem in private workplaces. 50 over, okay, over 50 percent, the lowest, um the lowest amount, which were white females or white males, were at 57%. So again, more likely than not, they believed that racial and ethnic discrimination is a major or minor problem in private workplaces. All right.

Karen McFarlane: 13:25

That's really critical because, like everybody thinks that it's basically everybody, almost everybody agrees that it's 100%.

Brittany S. Hale: 13:32

This is not a us versus them. We're all on the same page, right? However, the group who believed that the discrimination is a major or minor problem in private workplaces the most, at 76%, were Black females, black female-identifying people or Black women, and when asked if they thought racial or ethnic discrimination was a major problem or a minor problem in their own workplace, they were among the hottest to report that it was a major problem in their workplace, at 57%.

Karen McFarlane: 14:19

Okay, I mean that makes sense. Given this. I'm going to call it the informal rung theory, right, where you know, black women are typically at the bottom of the bottom rung right. Everybody you know is higher than them black men, latina, asian, white, of course, going up the spectrum. So a jibes with my what, what, what do I call it? I don't know the street version of facts and what's interesting is black men.

Brittany S. Hale: 14:58

When they said they thought you. When they asked whether they thought it was a major or minor problem in their own workplace, black men came in at 47 percent, so I thought that was really interesting.

Karen McFarlane: 15:13

Yeah, it's still jasmine yeah, latter, okay, okay, what did what people think?

Brittany S. Hale: 15:23

well, white men and women um felt that it was. They were both at 57 percent were with seeing it as a problem in private workplaces. But when asked if it was a problem in their own workplace, white men, 29% of them believed it was a major or minor problem in their own workplace and 25% just one quarter of white women polled uh believed that it was a major or minor problem in their own workplace, despite believing. You know overwhelmingly in a majority that it's a major problem in private workplaces generally, but when asked about their own workplace, only 25 percent okay, that adds to to me.

Karen McFarlane: 16:15

Okay, if somebody, if everybody else doing that not over here. Okay, that's somebody else's problem, is not our problem. Over here we're good, and because that would mean you, there's some reconciliation yes, not, not in my backyard, right like not.

Brittany S. Hale: 16:35

It's not happening here generally. Is it a problem? Sure, but it's invited to reflect upon workplace practices, my work well, I don't work at that place, I haven't seen it, which is is very, very interesting.

Karen McFarlane: 16:56

I mean that totally makes sense. Again, that means you have to. If you've seen it, then you have to start asking yourself questions about where do.

Karen McFarlane: 17:06

I work. What did I see? How did I react to that? How was I, or was how? I was not an ally. What happens if I see it again? It starts to put you in a very uncomfortable space, to acknowledge that your current environment has issues. And then what are you going to do? If anything, are you going to be an upstander or a bystander when faced with those issues? So they're just not happening here. It's just easier.

Brittany S. Hale: 17:35

I get that Very interesting. So I'm also going to give you a few more, few more numbers. Hopefully I'm not I'm not doing too much, but I keep going.

Karen McFarlane: 17:46

We got to see the receipts because people you know they need to know, we have to see the receipts.

Brittany S. Hale: 17:57

We have to see the receipts, um, so if my executive coach is listening, I'm not responding to to trauma in this moment, but dividing the listeners with information. So so two-thirds of black workers who said that they've been treated unfairly or discriminated against say that they the actions that they've experienced are intentional. That was about 66%, compared to Asian American workers who were really kind of the least at 49%, which I thought again really kind of an interesting gap. But taking it back to black women, overall black women are more likely than other workers to report that they've been denied a promotion, that they earned less than a co-worker for doing the same job, that they are treated as less competent, that they've been passed over for important projects, heard comments, insults or slurs from managers or coworkers, received a threat of physical violence, denied a raise, assigned unwanted shifts or tasks. Yep received less helpful advice, absolutely.

Karen McFarlane: 19:25

And, lastly, received fewer opportunities for education and training okay, so when I was responding, those are all things that I have experienced, except I have not received a threat that I actually recall.

Brittany S. Hale: 19:43

Yes, well, I'm glad for that, so glad for that.

Karen McFarlane: 19:47

I can check the mark, I can check the box for all the other things from my own personal experience the mark I can check the box for all the other things from my own personal experience, which is heartbreaking but also infuriating yeah, I mean I can say that when I was younger, you know, I was much more of a hothead about those things, right, um, but I think you just get weary over time and again.

Karen McFarlane: 20:13

You have to find a different way to process the things that are happening to you. Right, you live in your trauma every day, all day, and you can't which also tends to have an impact on one's physical health yes, 100 and so we see that happening um and again.

Brittany S. Hale: 20:40

I I think it's an important point to note that everyone who is bearing witness to this yes, black women are reporting, experiencing it. But within the report there are also anecdotes coming from other people who are witnessing this happening to these people. So I'm just going to read a quick excerpt from a white woman working in a private company that has more than 500 employees. So she's describing what she considered to be racial and ethnic discrimination. She says a co-worker was retained as a temporary worker even after a full-time position opened. She and this is a moment of allyship, right, she discussed that with her supervisor at the time Said hey, you know, there's full-time position open. Why do we have a temp? And he cited quote cultural issues for keeping the worker on a subpar contract. The individual was Black, american and she says, while her team did eventually hire him full-time, the perception was that, despite all of his work being vital, he was simply less valuable.

Karen McFarlane: 22:00

That's infuriating, that is so infuriating and it has such like a domino effect. Right, like you're not only denying the opportunity but you're denying the opportunity for a stable job which provides stable income, which provides more opportunities for family wealth building, just economic vitality for the members of his family and the next generation. So, like these biased acts, right, have a detrimental long-term effect on more than one person because there's many people attached to one person.

Brittany S. Hale: 22:46

Correct and we don't even know. We don't know what the role was, but what if this were, you know, a fairly high ranking role the effect that it likely had on the organization yeah and the um, the supervisor, again potentially stalling the organization's goals due to cultural issues, whatever that means.

Brittany S. Hale: 23:19

Right explanation that we don't really understand isn't rooted, in actual fact, right where? Where are the receipts? So what does it mean? Um, it said is hey, this person has not demonstrated the requisite competency that we need in order to fill this position. He's doing the job on a contract basis Right, right, right. You've employed him, he's good enough to complete the role on a conditional basis. Right and again, she says he was hired eventually. So how long were you engaging that person? Because sometimes, well, very often, contractors are more expensive.

Karen McFarlane: 24:20

Yeah, but what's awesome? There's the cultural competencies and then there's your core competencies, right, like you said, to do the job which this person would clearly do. The cultural stuff, again, how you define that, but I I kind of look at that more as a value-based system. Does this, does this hire, align to the mission, vision, values of the organization? And how are you judging that? Because if you do have a contractor, we don't really understand the role of that contractor. Were they in the office? Did they participate fully in meetings and events and et cetera, right? Or were they treated as an outsider because they were a contractor, not included an employee, you know only in situations?

Karen McFarlane: 25:13

How did you evaluate whether this was and I hate this word cultural fit, because that's what it sounds like to me. Like, how are you establishing that right? And you're right, like they were there, they were doing the job establishing that Right, but and you're right, like they were there to what they were doing the job, clearly doing the job well and eventually were hired. So that was a purely subjective evaluation of someone and that's what we need to get away from right, like it's not necessarily although this is what people do, whether we like someone or not, although this is what people do, whether we like someone or not. Um, but it's about the job that you are hired to do. Liking someone is a benefit, but not a requirement, correct?

Karen McFarlane: 25:56

correct and too, if we're grounding, yeah yeah, no, no, go for it, no, no. I'm just saying too often people lead with that, with likeability factor. I mean in politics that's a huge part too, like that's what we lose, right, but we can't do that as leaders. That is the wrong move. Sorry, go ahead.

Brittany S. Hale: 26:18

Yeah, and I was just going to say as a leader, the question is do you want to base your organization's future and the operational success on a subjective feeling that is not measurable?

Karen McFarlane: 26:38

Right.

Brittany S. Hale: 26:40

That is subject to change due to factors that may have nothing to do with that individual Right. There can be 15 things that have happened to me to ruin my day before my first interaction with this team member that has nothing to do with that team member.

Karen McFarlane: 27:03

Exactly.

Brittany S. Hale: 27:04

Right, I hit traffic. I wore, you know, one blue sock, one black sock. You know my alarm went off. All of these subjective experiences that impact how I come and show up at work. Yeah, and it has nothing to do with what I'm doing.

Karen McFarlane: 27:23

You know, what I've seen, just to flip the likability part, is that because someone is very likable, their work is judged very differently, right? I've seen this time and time again. Oh, they're great, they're just. You know, I really like them, they're really trying, but their work product is very poor and is making the organization suffer because they're not doing what they're supposed to do, and the people rely on that, right? So you're making bad judgment calls on both sides because you're using a subjective measure, because you've deemed that person a quote-unquote cultural fit. But they're not competent in the other categories, right?

Brittany S. Hale: 28:16

And this experience is so pervasive, we are all so aware of it, that we have a term for it right the quote personality hire right, that's right right there's memes, right, you can go on tiktok, you can go on instagram and you can see people joking about the fact that, oh, you know, when you stroll in at 10 am, but it's okay, because you're the personality hire right in seconds. We've communicated a huge problem that you just articulated. You have someone who is